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Offline bonghitwillie

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dpa 4061 grill question
« on: December 06, 2014, 01:18:26 AM »
i lost the grill the one of my 4061s. the side part is on there, but not the grill. lost it in battle. how will this effect sound quality/performance? does it effect SPL? I guess it make the element more susceptible to damage. thank you in advance for any reply.

Offline yates7592

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2014, 04:52:51 AM »
Some would say that 4061's sound even better without the grill because you're not getting the high frequency bump. Won't affect the max SPL either. But not really recommended in practice because you do risk damaging the exposed mic. Better order some new ones IMO.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2014, 03:29:19 PM »
The length of the plastic barrel part is what modifies the frequency response.  The grill on the end only provides protection.  You can use the microphone with just the barrel portion without a gill and retain the normal sonic character of the microphone as using an undamaged grid, as long as it is installed so that the solid-walled part extends over the capsule by the same length as a normal, undamaged grid.

When in a pinch, I've also modified the longer 'high-boost' grids (which I never use) to make 'low-boost' short grids out of them.  To do that you need to pop out the grill part and remove it using a chopstick or something, then sand-down the longer tube so that it is the length as a short one.

You can then record normally until you can get replacements. The low-boost +3dB 'short-grids' are mostly likey the ones you want to specify when ordering replacements.

Some would say that 4061's sound even better without the grill because you're not getting the high frequency bump.

Not me.  Using the microphone without a short-grid will eliminate the slight ~3dB boost centered around @10kHz, which more times than not is beneficial, creating something a diffuse-field equalized response- a useful trait in omnis intended for recording from a distance.  But not using the short-grid will also make the response somewhat less linear, at least to my ear and from the response graphs I've seen which show larger than -3dB  wiggles. [Edit- Correction.  According to the graph I came across previously and posted at the link aaronji added in his post below, I was imagining those less-linear deviations. Looks like not using the short grid produces about the same response up to 10kHz where it's about +2 dB, but it then rolls back off just above that, instead of extending to +3dB @ 15kHz and then rolling off above there.]  If the resulting recording does happen to be a bit over-energetic around 10kHz, a well-tuned minor EQ adjustment can fix that more effectively IME. 

The longer, high-boost grids (the ones with the non-protruding screens) are intended to correct for a muffled response from on-person-mounted voice mic'ing, and produce a much peakier +10dB boost with a steeper drop-off way up top.  I've never found those useful at all for recording music.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 06:26:13 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline aaronji

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2014, 05:02:44 PM »
The frequency response curve without any grid is posted here:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147921.msg1894491#msg1894491.  Maybe that helps...

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2014, 06:09:12 PM »
Thanks for digging that up.  I knew I'd posted it here before somewhere.  I just edited my previous post to include this correction-

[Edit- According to the graph I came across previously and posted at the link aaronji has added, I was imagining those less-linear deviations. Looks like not using the short grid produces about the same response up to 10kHz where it's about +2 dB, but it then rolls back off just above that, instead of extending to +3dB @ 15kHz and then rolling off above there.] 

I stand by preferring use of the grid for my uses of this microphone.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 06:25:28 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline FibCouple

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2018, 07:00:04 AM »
The length of the plastic barrel part is what modifies the frequency response.  The grill on the end only provides protection.  You can use the microphone with just the barrel portion without a gill and retain the normal sonic character of the microphone as using an undamaged grid, as long as it is installed so that the solid-walled part extends over the capsule by the same length as a normal, undamaged grid.

When in a pinch, I've also modified the longer 'high-boost' grids (which I never use) to make 'low-boost' short grids out of them.  To do that you need to pop out the grill part and remove it using a chopstick or something, then sand-down the longer tube so that it is the length as a short one.

My first post here and I thought I will reply here so information is in one place for these microphones.

I am about to install a few of these inside my acoustic guitars. The mic signal will be combined with a surface transducer pickup & go via a screened stereo cable to my guitar preamps, which have ability to treat the two signals separately.

The 4061s I have been able to source have come with a long grid. My first question was going to be as to whether I really need the grids at all, as being an omni and inside the guitar it may not matter but reading GetBucket's view I guess  I may as well use a grid to help the upper end.

IF I was going to use the grids, I would like to convert it to a short grid with its soft bump. I can not find any size specs of the short versus long grids anywhere. Would somebody be kind enough to advise as to how much of the tube to 'sand off' after I have taken off the grilsl. Being inside the guitar, I don't need the grills for protection etc.

Many thanks for your help  & for a very detailed discussion on these amazing mics.

Offline FibCouple

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2018, 05:28:49 PM »
Any inputs please

Offline ilduclo

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2018, 06:00:17 PM »
talk to the guys at dpa, they are really friendly and may have spare grids they can send you for low or no cost. Since this is taping yourself, I'd recco that you try the system without and with the grids yourself and see which you like better. You could also post them here for review.

Offline voltronic

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2018, 08:20:38 PM »
The length of the plastic barrel part is what modifies the frequency response.  The grill on the end only provides protection.  You can use the microphone with just the barrel portion without a gill and retain the normal sonic character of the microphone as using an undamaged grid, as long as it is installed so that the solid-walled part extends over the capsule by the same length as a normal, undamaged grid.

When in a pinch, I've also modified the longer 'high-boost' grids (which I never use) to make 'low-boost' short grids out of them.  To do that you need to pop out the grill part and remove it using a chopstick or something, then sand-down the longer tube so that it is the length as a short one.

My first post here and I thought I will reply here so information is in one place for these microphones.

I am about to install a few of these inside my acoustic guitars. The mic signal will be combined with a surface transducer pickup & go via a screened stereo cable to my guitar preamps, which have ability to treat the two signals separately.

The 4061s I have been able to source have come with a long grid. My first question was going to be as to whether I really need the grids at all, as being an omni and inside the guitar it may not matter but reading GetBucket's view I guess  I may as well use a grid to help the upper end.

IF I was going to use the grids, I would like to convert it to a short grid with its soft bump. I can not find any size specs of the short versus long grids anywhere. Would somebody be kind enough to advise as to how much of the tube to 'sand off' after I have taken off the grilsl. Being inside the guitar, I don't need the grills for protection etc.

Many thanks for your help  & for a very detailed discussion on these amazing mics.

I'm not sure a DIY solution is going to work here.  It certainly won't perform the same as the authentic parts.  Look at how differently the grids are shaped, for one thing:
https://www.dpamicrophones.com/accessories/miniature-grid-soft-boost-for-dscreet-and-dfine
https://www.dpamicrophones.com/accessories/miniature-grid-high-boost-for-dscreet-and-dfine

The other thing to consider about running 406x mics without any grid is that they become side-address mics, instead of end-address as they do with either grid installed.

I'm curious: Why you are installing these into guitars along with surface pickups?  I don't know what your specific application or musical style is, but I would think combining surface pickups with traditional external micing would give you much more variety of sound pickup to play with.
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Offline EmRR

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2018, 08:44:02 AM »

The other thing to consider about running 406x mics without any grid is that they become side-address mics, instead of end-address as they do with either grid installed.

I'm curious: Why you are installing these into guitars along with surface pickups?  I don't know what your specific application or musical style is, but I would think combining surface pickups with traditional external micing would give you much more variety of sound pickup to play with.

Maybe my pair are extremely early models with a different response.  Without the grill on, they have the brightest top peak of any of 6 different omni's I have.  I never ever have the grills on unless I'm using them as lavaliers mounted in clothing or hair.   I have frequently taped them onto my SASS-P as an option (they usually sound better than the built in elements) and they don't ever seem dark in the top, even at pretty great distance. I feel like I see quite a few classical location guys using them in the diffuse field without the grills on too. 

The mic is so small, there's not a lot of difference in response no matter the orientation, you can hear a little but not much, even if it's more than 90º of axis.  I record a lot of acoustic guitars with one either on a stand (funny looking) or taped in the sound hole like a pickup, and they are relatively immune to position differences.  So, I don't consider there to be anything about the grill that would make me think of it as side address or end address for one or the other. 

You will definitely not need the grill mounted directly in a guitar sound hole, you will have plenty of treble sparkle.  They will sound very different from the pickup, in fact I'd think you'd mainly use them over the pickup unless you expect to be fighting feedback from stage monitors. 

Offline FibCouple

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2018, 02:16:51 PM »
talk to the guys at dpa, they are really friendly and may have spare grids they can send you for low or no cost. Since this is taping yourself, I'd recco that you try the system without and with the grids yourself and see which you like better. You could also post them here for review.

Thank you - I did talk to them but I wanted to avoid the expense of buying 5 caps for €45 if I could avoid it.

Offline FibCouple

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2018, 02:24:59 PM »
Quote
The other thing to consider about running 406x mics without any grid is that they become side-address mics, instead of end-address as they do with either grid installed.

I'm curious: Why you are installing these into guitars along with surface pickups?  I don't know what your specific application or musical style is, but I would think combining surface pickups with traditional external micing would give you much more variety of sound pickup to play with.

Thank you so much for your thoughts.

I believe the grill is just for protection & its the tubular part of the cap which changes the frequency response.

Installing the mic in the guitar really adds a lot to the sound compared to surface pickups (more air, open sound) which is great for live as long as one can avoid feedback. I can get pretty decent sound by just taping the mic to scratch guard as it is an omni with no proximity effect.

In studio I still prefer the external miking but whilst songwriting its great to get ideas in quickly with a sound which is very usable too. This combo is used very often by guitarists for live use, including Laurence Juber, the guitarist for Wings, and many others.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 02:30:06 PM by FibCouple »

Offline FibCouple

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2018, 02:28:43 PM »
Quote
Maybe my pair are extremely early models with a different response.  Without the grill on, they have the brightest top peak of any of 6 different omni's I have.  I never ever have the grills on unless I'm using them as lavaliers mounted in clothing or hair.   I have frequently taped them onto my SASS-P as an option (they usually sound better than the built in elements) and they don't ever seem dark in the top, even at pretty great distance. I feel like I see quite a few classical location guys using them in the diffuse field without the grills on too. 

The mic is so small, there's not a lot of difference in response no matter the orientation, you can hear a little but not much, even if it's more than 90º of axis.  I record a lot of acoustic guitars with one either on a stand (funny looking) or taped in the sound hole like a pickup, and they are relatively immune to position differences.  So, I don't consider there to be anything about the grill that would make me think of it as side address or end address for one or the other. 

You will definitely not need the grill mounted directly in a guitar sound hole, you will have plenty of treble sparkle.  They will sound very different from the pickup, in fact I'd think you'd mainly use them over the pickup unless you expect to be fighting feedback from stage monitors.

Thank you for your thoughts. I agree it probably doesn't matter inside the guitar but I still point them at the soundboard & yes I do use mic for 80-90% of the sound, with rest coming form pickup. Sounds pretty.

Installed the setup (mic & pickup) inside an ukulele for my daughter the other day - that was a different kind of challenge  :lol:

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2018, 11:36:41 AM »
The mic is so small that the grids will not affect polar directionality in any meaningful way.

The treble-response boost effect corresponds to the length of the grid tube. It's a helmholtz resonator.  The longer the tube the higher the Q and gain of the bumped up response. 

The protective mesh on the end is only for protection.

I'd mount the mic in the guitar in such a way that you can play around with changing the length of the tube to decide if it makes an meaningful difference to your ear, and tune it however you like.  You could even mess around with a short length of drinking straw or something else the appropriate diameter.

It will make a difference, however, keep in mind that where you mount the mic inside the guitar body it likely to make a larger difference via resonant modes within the guitar body and structurally-born vibration to the microphone in various locations.
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Offline ilduclo

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Re: dpa 4061 grill question
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2018, 02:39:21 PM »

  helmholtz resonator

good band name

 

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