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Author Topic: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?  (Read 4172 times)

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Offline (Evan)

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Hey guys. I'm trying to connect a pair of AT853's terminated into a 3.5mm plug to a Zoom H6's TRS inputs to receive 12v of phantom power. I have the following adapter:

http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-YMP-434-Female-8-Inch-Breakout/dp/B0010D0HO0/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1422991203&sr=8-5&keywords=3.5+to+trs+dual

These microphones can handle 12v of phantom power, but when I connect them I get no sound. Is this the wrong type of splitter? How can I achieve what I am trying to do?

Thanks

Offline Gene Poole

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 06:06:12 PM »
That's a 1/8 (3.5 mm) stereo  to 1/4 left and right, not TRS.  I'm not familiar with the Zoom H6, but I assume it uses TRS 1/4 inputs, not TS 1/4 inputs.

You really shouldn't have the AT853's terminated in a single 3.5mm TRS, but to individual 1/4 TRS plugs for each mic. if you're wanting to plug them into balanced inputs.

Offline voltronic

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 10:37:36 PM »
As Gene says, you have the wrong termination for what you want to do.  You could instead use the 3.5mm input that the H6 has on the side of the X/Y mic head module.  I don't know if that jack can supply plug in power, but you will probably need a battery box anyway to get adequate voltage to the mics.  It won't be 12V, but I doubt the 853 needs that much anyway.
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Offline (Evan)

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2015, 11:36:09 AM »
The reason they are terminated in a 3.5mm plug is because I've always previously used them with a mini Sound Professionals preamp into a Sony PCM-D50's line input.

I just recently got the Zoom H6 and I have noticed that the "Mic/Line" input is not nearly as quiet as the D50. When I used the preamp before, I would turn the gain up all the way on the D50 and use the knob on the preamp to control my levels.

However on the H6, if I turn the gain all the way up there is considerable noise, while the D50 was completely silent. I do not believe the mini jack on the H6 is a true "line in". So I wanted to try the combo inputs to see if they were less noisy.

Is there any solution to get this to work outside of re-terminating the microphones? Would it be ok ff I turn the gain up all the way on the preamp instead and use the Zoom's gain dial? I've always been under the impression it should be the other way around.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 11:39:47 AM by (Evan) »

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2015, 12:26:25 PM »
As the others said, that's not really how you should be running those into balanced inputs. 

The best way (from about a year and a half of experience with AT853s) is to run the 1/8 > Battery Box > 1/8 line jack.  I would highly recommend one of Chris Church(church audio)'s battery boxes as they work very nicely and are quite small and out of the way.  Until recently my open rig was AT853 (1/8 TRS) > Ugly Battery Box (9v) > Tascam DR-05 (line in) with great results.  I've since upgraded, but that is still my main stealth rig and I still get pretty great results.
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Offline (Evan)

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2015, 12:28:13 PM »
What is the benefit of using a battery box vs the more than sufficient 12v provided by the H6?

Offline Gene Poole

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2015, 12:37:49 PM »
The reason they are terminated in a 3.5mm plug is because I've always previously used them with a mini Sound Professionals preamp into a Sony PCM-D50's line input.

I just recently got the Zoom H6 and I have noticed that the "Mic/Line" input is not nearly as quiet as the D50. When I used the preamp before, I would turn the gain up all the way on the D50 and use the knob on the preamp to control my levels.

However on the H6, if I turn the gain all the way up there is considerable noise, while the D50 was completely silent. I do not believe the mini jack on the H6 is a true "line in". So I wanted to try the combo inputs to see if they were less noisy.

Is there any solution to get this to work outside of re-terminating the microphones? Would it be ok ff I turn the gain up all the way on the preamp instead and use the Zoom's gain dial? I've always been under the impression it should be the other way around.

There's really no such thing as a "true" line-in in the sense that there is nothing between the input and the ADC.  There's always going to be some sort of isolation be it op-amp, transformer, discrete amp, or combinations thereof.  Ideally, you have the least noise at the lowest gain (gain here may even be negative in the lowest position) so you want to set the least gain on your noisiest section.  I'm not familiar with the SP pre-amp, but I would assume a dedicated mic pre would be quieter than any gain section in a portable recorder and adjust accordingly (minimum gain on the Zoom H6 and control levels with the outboard pre-amp).

As far as AT853's, my research has run into multiple opinions and I have no definitive answer on how much voltage they should use.  That said, my opinion is that they probably work best at about 5 or 6 volts.  They seem to be OK with as much as 12, but I don't think more voltage helps any.  PIP power specs for portable devices are all over the board.  Best to actually measure it with a voltmeter with the mics plugged in.  You may need to build a breakout cable to do this.  My AT853's are the original Audio Technica version and have balanced 3-wire mini-xlr terminators.  I use them with the supplied AT8531 battery boxes fed with 15V phantom to the XLR connectors.  The AT8531's drop the voltage to about 4.5 volts no matter if you feed them 48V or something lower (15V is the other setting on my SD-MP-2).  If you use the battery box alone, they only get 1.5 volts.  I've never tried them at a loud rock show with this low voltage, so I have no idea how they work.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2015, 03:19:46 PM »
Some at853s terminate in mini xlr to which a y is connected ending in a 1\8 stereo plug.  You could pm Darktrain about reworking your cables.

Offline darktrain

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2015, 08:55:11 AM »
You need phantom adapters to use the phantom inputs even with each mic terminated in mini xlrs, trs, xlr, etc... If you want to keep the mini plug you would need one of Jon's pfa adapters.

Offline (Evan)

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2015, 12:13:40 PM »
I would need phantom adapters even though the mics can handle 12v of power? Very confused here.

Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 01:13:39 PM »
I would need phantom adapters even though the mics can handle 12v of power? Very confused here.

I think the 853s aren't truly "phantom powered" as we commonly think of it.

The power they use can be derived from phantom power...or batteries.

In any case - despite the similarity of voltages - they are a totally different power scheme (which Im sure others can explain better than me!)
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Offline Gene Poole

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2015, 04:03:25 PM »
I would need phantom adapters even though the mics can handle 12v of power? Very confused here.

Jon mentions T-Power above.  This is a slightly different means of powering a microphone than Phantom.  There's a nice wiki on this at:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Acoustics/Microphone_Design_and_Operation

I'm going to have to rethink my AT853 configuration now.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2015, 05:29:42 PM »

There was a poster in this thread who said 9v was the limit for AT853s if you didn't want to fry them. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=93381.0

The power adapter that allows them to run off phantom power apparently runs off 9v-52v according to some other threads, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the AT853s will like it if you hit them with more than 9v I am guessing.  I don't know this from personal knowledge and please don't assume this is right. 

I'm thinking the phantom power adapter is there to step down phantom power to a level that's safe for the AT853s to use--whatever that level is.     

Offline nameloc01

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2015, 06:51:17 PM »
they sound better and have a higher SPL handling ability running them 3-wire/the AT power boxes/another box with the phantom power adaptors/custom made 3-wire BB vs 2-wire (terminated into a single mini plug) thats why they "clip" when running them off a battery box/plug in power while in loud situations. They were not designed to operate like that.. Soundpros sells them like that as a (lower price) standard package vs. selling them as they are made (mini xlr) then having to sell the adaptors and a phantom power supply/custom made 3-wire BB which is obviously a much higher cost. They do/did offer the "high SPL mod" (which is simply putting the connectors back on that they took off) and a pair of adaptors..but, in reality this isn't a mod, this is how they come from the factory.. the single mini-plug termination is the mod (which doesn't work well)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 06:53:44 PM by nameloc01 »
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2015, 06:58:58 PM »
they sound better and have a higher SPL handling ability running them 3-wire/the AT power boxes/another box with the phantom power adaptors/custom made 3-wire BB vs 2-wire (terminated into a single mini plug) thats why they "clip" when running them off a battery box/plug in power while in loud situations. They were not designed to operate like that.. Soundpros sells them like that as a (lower price) standard package vs. selling them as they are made (mini xlr) then having to sell the adaptors and a phantom power supply/custom made 3-wire BB which is obviously a much higher cost. They do/did offer the "high SPL mod" (which is simply putting the connectors back on that they took off) and a pair of adaptors..but, in reality this isn't a mod, this is how they come from the factory.. the single mini-plug termination is the mod (which doesn't work well)

The high SPL mod is another matter completely. I think that's the Chris Chruch mod that adds a resistor somewhere - that mod was later revealed by Chris and then summarily copied by SP...its more than just a connector swap.
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Offline nameloc01

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2015, 07:20:16 PM »
they sound better and have a higher SPL handling ability running them 3-wire/the AT power boxes/another box with the phantom power adaptors/custom made 3-wire BB vs 2-wire (terminated into a single mini plug) thats why they "clip" when running them off a battery box/plug in power while in loud situations. They were not designed to operate like that.. Soundpros sells them like that as a (lower price) standard package vs. selling them as they are made (mini xlr) then having to sell the adaptors and a phantom power supply/custom made 3-wire BB which is obviously a much higher cost. They do/did offer the "high SPL mod" (which is simply putting the connectors back on that they took off) and a pair of adaptors..but, in reality this isn't a mod, this is how they come from the factory.. the single mini-plug termination is the mod (which doesn't work well)

The high SPL mod is another matter completely. I think that's the Chris Chruch mod that adds a resistor somewhere - that mod was later revealed by Chris and then summarily copied by SP...its more than just a connector swap.

Soundpros original "high SPL mod" was putting the xlr connectors back on and including a pair of Nady or AT phantom power adaptors. The resistor mod was brought in by Chris Church afterwards. I bought mine around 8-9 years ago..so.. I'm sure they have changed their website as far as the options for the mics. Regardless, 3-wire is the correct way. The resistor mod makes them close to the SPL handling as the 3-wire, but they have slightly higher noise than.

(they even had yet another HIGHER SPL option, but that was just including a set of the AT power modules (one per mic).. they have mini xlrs in. I had a pair of the 8532s at one time, but they made the mics sound very flat)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 07:26:56 PM by nameloc01 »
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Sony PCM M-10
Ixxx XX-X
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Offline (Evan)

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Re: AT853 > 3.5mm to dual TS adapter > Zoom H6. Why isn't this working?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2015, 01:41:51 PM »
Thanks for all the info.

 

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