Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 2)

[Gutbucket]

Voltronic, how do you plan to use the 70d for choir recording?  Figure you have something in mind to move up from your m10.

Great question - you've got me pegged.  I really want to try out the Tony Faulkner 4-mic phased array that uses a center pair of subcards (my CM3s obviously) with omnis spaced a bit further out and with all 4 capsules aligned horizontally.  I've been following these two threads on GS as well as a few others, and I think that might be a good starting point for me.  You'll see that in the "Three Mixes" thread I just posted a couple questions to Tony because his recommended spacings (47cm subcards; 67cm omnis) seem confusing to me like they would leave a bit of a hole in the center image just by going from the SRA of each array, but clearly there is more going on here and Tony's results speak for themselves.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/997189-tony-faulkner-lso-abbey-rd-shostakovich.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/930912-three-mixes-boojum-jnorman-case-study.html#post10948090

Very interested in that.  Please start a new thread for it when you do so.  I'd love to discuss it.  In addition to Decca tree setups and Günther Theile's OCT (Optimum Cardioid Triangle) intended for 3-channels, Faulkner's description of his 4-mic "phased array" was a significant influence on the evolution of the outdoor setup I'm currently using.  I've come to find the antenna array aspect of it with 'forward gain' and the improved phase-imaging he talks about is fundamental.

I always relate to Mr. Falkner's statements in what I've read of his and in the interviews with him I've heard.  He thinks not in terms of standard mic configurations, but in terms of what he wants to achieve and how to make that happen given the tools he has within practical constraints.  His answers to the problems are usually more applicable to what we are doing here than the working methods of most other professional recording engineers, classical, pop, or otherwise.

Two quote's of his from your links above-

[snip] The spacings I quoted are for me starting points and different engineers will fine-tune their spacings to suit their tastes.

What I want to avoid is that sound of in-phase near-mono ambience from using a pair of coincident or near-coincident cardioids. It comes from the omni component in a cardioid pattern, and I do not like to listen to ambience derived from coincident omnis pulling the room-tone to the centre of the image when it should remain diffuse and as incoherent as our ears would hear. These are personal tastes. [snip]

-------

[snip] All small diameter capacitor cardioid microphones have a particular sound quality character which should be used sparingly, and although the Rodes SDC's are better than many (to my ears) they are still not flattering to orchestral massed strings on their own without omnis to fatten the low end, to add weight and to add depth. The Schoeps CCM21 subcardioids are warmer sounding than typical cardioids which is helpful, but they do not reach quite so far into the back of the orchestra.

Both of these arrays have logic which is based in science and works in action. The problem with many minimalist mic systems used on their own in typical performance spaces is that they can have one fatal flaw from musicians' point of view - they end up sounding a bit distant and a bit unfocussed. Using arrays gives you forward gain so you find more presence and detail than say three omnis on separate stands or a single Blumlein crossed fig8. For me the objective (or game as some prefer) is to come up with a main array which paints a canvas of what sounds like a plausible live sound. [snip]

^^
spot on!

Apologizes for the OT swerve, now back to the regularly scheduled program..

[phil_er_up]

.......thanks for the warning.  Not being able to adjust the camera out during a recording is a negative.  It's no problem on the 60d.

How is it different on the 60D? just curious...

Do not own a  60D though by looking at the pictures it has 2 separate dials for headphone and camera output on the outside of the unit. Looks like all  you do on the  60D is turn the dial to adjust volume for EITHER of the headphone/camera output.

On the DR70 there is ONLY ONE DIAL and it is to adjust the headphones volume. There is no corresponding volume knob on the outside of the dr70 like the 60D to adjust camera volume. You have to use the menu system and once you start recording all you can adjust is gain on the 4 channels NOT ANY SELECTION FROM THE MENU.

After you start recording you CAN NOT adjust the camera output gain to decrease it if you are overdriving the volume levels on your camera. I asked about this earlier in the thread and did not understand correctly what someone said about this feature. I do not like how big the DR60 is and really liked the idea of feeding my camera an audio source from this very small 4 channel recorder. So sort of disappointed this has to be set correctly first to have it really work...then there is the camera ability to handle that signal properly and sound good. Have not had good results with my camera so far...

Hope I made that clear.

[2manyrocks]

Yep.

60d has a manual control wheel to adjust the gain out to the camera.  I sort of wish Tascam had made the 70d case a little deeper and kept some of the manual controls from the 60d. 

It would be great to discuss possible mic arrays for choral recording with the 70d in another thread.   

[willndmb]

The combined out on the 70 vs separate on the 60 has kept me from even entertaining the 70
The 60 allows for camera, line, and headphones all at once
I did have hiss issues at first with the 60 going to a mic in on my camcorder. I never had an issue running line out via attenuator with multi other devices, just the 60 gave me issues both attenuator and without attenuator. Turned out the camcorder needed to be dialed down a lot and since, everything has been great

[Rally_AK]

Ran this with my camera. You can not set the output level for the camera once you start recording. So you need to do this before the show starts or hope you get the right setting. Also I would get static from the recording going from the camera out to the video camera input. I tried multiple setting and could not get rid of the static. Think it is the camera. Bummer!!! This is one thing I bought the recorder for.

I tried setting of -30 DB all the way to 0 DB and then the same setting on the camera and no difference- still a lot of static. Unless I can figure this out I would not record to the camera this way...and you can not adjust output volume when you hit the record button.

Could tascam do a firmware update where you could you select either the the headphone dial for headphone or for the camera output?

PS: All the screens are not covered in the manual. arg...

Did you try changing the Line Out output gain from LINE to CAM? There's a 30dB difference between the two.

[Rally_AK]

Quick update on the "Write Timeout" failures I was having recording (4) channels at 24/96.

I'm testing out a new PNY Elite Performance 128GB card and it seams to be working just fine. It recorded all night without any issue and I'm letting it go all day today to be double sure. It appears that the problems I was having were attributed to the 128GB SanDisk Ultra cards I was using.

Again, stay away from the SanDisk Ultra SDXC cards if you plan on recording 24/96!

[Cheesecadet]

FWIW, I use a Sandisck Ultra Plus SDXC card 64gb with no issues going 2496 on all channels.

[voltronic]

Quick update on the "Write Timeout" failures I was having recording (4) channels at 24/96.

I'm testing out a new PNY Elite Performance 128GB card and it seams to be working just fine. It recorded all night without any issue and I'm letting it go all day today to be double sure. It appears that the problems I was having were attributed to the 128GB SanDisk Ultra cards I was using.

Again, stay away from the SanDisk Ultra SDXC cards if you plan on recording 24/96!

It figures that the preferred brand is the one that gave you problems!  I wonder if you got a dud or this is a  problematic model?

Since Tascam probably isn't going to test many more cards (if any), we here can maintain a list of "known good" or "potentially  problematic" cards.  This child go on an FAQ / Recommended Settings thread as I mentioned earlier.  Speaking of which, I'll volunteer to get that going unless someone else would prefer to.  I'm a new user and don't want to step on toes of those with more experience here.

[404 Not Found]

On a different note from what is being talked about in re. to SD cards.  TASCAM finally got back to me on my "returned for warranty repair DR-70D issues" and have messaged me that they could not fix the problem.  A new 70D is being shipped out to replace the original unit.

Not all that bad of a turn around from TASCAM, 3 weeks +/- with a new replacement deck.

[Rally_AK]

Quick update on the "Write Timeout" failures I was having recording (4) channels at 24/96.

I'm testing out a new PNY Elite Performance 128GB card and it seams to be working just fine. It recorded all night without any issue and I'm letting it go all day today to be double sure. It appears that the problems I was having were attributed to the 128GB SanDisk Ultra cards I was using.

Again, stay away from the SanDisk Ultra SDXC cards if you plan on recording 24/96!

It figures that the preferred brand is the one that gave you problems!  I wonder if you got a dud or this is a  problematic model?

Since Tascam probably isn't going to test many more cards (if any), we here can maintain a list of "known good" or "potentially  problematic" cards.  This child go on an FAQ / Recommended Settings thread as I mentioned earlier.  Speaking of which, I'll volunteer to get that going unless someone else would prefer to.  I'm a new user and don't want to step on toes of those with more experience here.

I know, I went with SanDisk because they're considered to be the best/most reliable cards in many circles. I don't think my cards were duds, both were brand new from Amazon and passed F3's (http://oss.digirati.com.br/f3/) read/write tests with zero corrupted sectors.

I think it would be cool if you started a FAQ thread. I'll PM you my suggestions...

[voltronic]

Quick update on the "Write Timeout" failures I was having recording (4) channels at 24/96.

I'm testing out a new PNY Elite Performance 128GB card and it seams to be working just fine. It recorded all night without any issue and I'm letting it go all day today to be double sure. It appears that the problems I was having were attributed to the 128GB SanDisk Ultra cards I was using.

Again, stay away from the SanDisk Ultra SDXC cards if you plan on recording 24/96!

It figures that the preferred brand is the one that gave you problems!  I wonder if you got a dud or this is a  problematic model?

Since Tascam probably isn't going to test many more cards (if any), we here can maintain a list of "known good" or "potentially  problematic" cards.  This child go on an FAQ / Recommended Settings thread as I mentioned earlier.  Speaking of which, I'll volunteer to get that going unless someone else would prefer to.  I'm a new user and don't want to step on toes of those with more experience here.

I know, I went with SanDisk because they're considered to be the best/most reliable cards in many circles. I don't think my cards were duds, both were brand new from Amazon and passed F3's (http://oss.digirati.com.br/f3/) read/write tests with zero corrupted sectors.

I think it would be cool if you started a FAQ thread. I'll PM you my suggestions...

Thanks for the link to that test utility!  I'll add that to my bag of tricks.

I had a SanDisk card go bad recently: http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Memory-Adapter-SDSDQUAN-064G-G4A-Version/dp/B00M55C1I2/ref=pd_sim_pc_3/186-6285474-7444546?ie=UTF8&refRID=03TX8ENTV9292Q27W302

I had it in my phone to hold my music, and after about 6 months I was able to read from it just fine but was no longer able to write to it or format it.  The data that was there did not appear to be corrupted, and there was no write-protect flag enabled, but it refused to allow any new data to be written or anything to be erased.  I even tried low-level formatting with a couple different tools - nothing doing.  I bought another of the same exact card and it's been working perfectly.  Never had this issue with any other cards of different brands or types.

[sperho]

Re:  card failures.  While Sandisk is one of the reputable and quality card suppliers out there, they do fail...  I've used about a dozen brands over the past 10 years including Ridata, Kingston, Sandisk, Transcend, Patriot, PNY, Wintech, etc.  Interestingly the only 2 cards that have ever failed on me (not due to user error) were Sandisk cards.  Go figure.  Statistics.  Anecdotes.  I'll still buy them, though - I usually try to buy on price and high review count and medium to medium high speeds for a given era of cards.  No sensible reason to write off a specific brand or type based on N=1 samples.  Now, if there is a trend, that's another story...

[voltronic]

Voltronic, how do you plan to use the 70d for choir recording?  Figure you have something in mind to move up from your m10.

Great question - you've got me pegged.  I really want to try out the Tony Faulkner 4-mic phased array that uses a center pair of subcards (my CM3s obviously) with omnis spaced a bit further out and with all 4 capsules aligned horizontally.  I've been following these two threads on GS as well as a few others, and I think that might be a good starting point for me.  You'll see that in the "Three Mixes" thread I just posted a couple questions to Tony because his recommended spacings (47cm subcards; 67cm omnis) seem confusing to me like they would leave a bit of a hole in the center image just by going from the SRA of each array, but clearly there is more going on here and Tony's results speak for themselves.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/997189-tony-faulkner-lso-abbey-rd-shostakovich.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/930912-three-mixes-boojum-jnorman-case-study.html#post10948090

Very interested in that.  Please start a new thread for it when you do so.  I'd love to discuss it.  In addition to Decca tree setups and Günther Theile's OCT (Optimum Cardioid Triangle) intended for 3-channels, Faulkner's description of his 4-mic "phased array" was a significant influence on the evolution of the outdoor setup I'm currently using.  I've come to find the antenna array aspect of it with 'forward gain' and the improved phase-imaging he talks about is fundamental.

I always relate to Mr. Falkner's statements in what I've read of his and in the interviews with him I've heard.  He thinks not in terms of standard mic configurations, but in terms of what he wants to achieve and how to make that happen given the tools he has within practical constraints.  His answers to the problems are usually more applicable to what we are doing here than the working methods of most other professional recording engineers, classical, pop, or otherwise.

Two quote's of his from your links above-

[snip] The spacings I quoted are for me starting points and different engineers will fine-tune their spacings to suit their tastes.

What I want to avoid is that sound of in-phase near-mono ambience from using a pair of coincident or near-coincident cardioids. It comes from the omni component in a cardioid pattern, and I do not like to listen to ambience derived from coincident omnis pulling the room-tone to the centre of the image when it should remain diffuse and as incoherent as our ears would hear. These are personal tastes. [snip]

-------

[snip] All small diameter capacitor cardioid microphones have a particular sound quality character which should be used sparingly, and although the Rodes SDC's are better than many (to my ears) they are still not flattering to orchestral massed strings on their own without omnis to fatten the low end, to add weight and to add depth. The Schoeps CCM21 subcardioids are warmer sounding than typical cardioids which is helpful, but they do not reach quite so far into the back of the orchestra.

Both of these arrays have logic which is based in science and works in action. The problem with many minimalist mic systems used on their own in typical performance spaces is that they can have one fatal flaw from musicians' point of view - they end up sounding a bit distant and a bit unfocussed. Using arrays gives you forward gain so you find more presence and detail than say three omnis on separate stands or a single Blumlein crossed fig8. For me the objective (or game as some prefer) is to come up with a main array which paints a canvas of what sounds like a plausible live sound. [snip]

^^
spot on!

Apologizes for the OT swerve, now back to the regularly scheduled program..

I definitely will.  I won't have any material to post until mid-to-late May unfortunately.  And yes, I've gained a lot of insight from Tony through his interviews I've watched.  I really love the whole minimalist approach to recording an orchestra - I never really like the recordings that use a thousand spot mics, as it never sounds natural.  His the the philosophy that makes the most sense to me so far.

[phil_er_up]

Ran this with my camera. You can not set the output level for the camera once you start recording. So you need to do this before the show starts or hope you get the right setting. Also I would get static from the recording going from the camera out to the video camera input. I tried multiple setting and could not get rid of the static. Think it is the camera. Bummer!!! This is one thing I bought the recorder for.

I tried setting of -30 DB all the way to 0 DB and then the same setting on the camera and no difference- still a lot of static. Unless I can figure this out I would not record to the camera this way...and you can not adjust output volume when you hit the record button.

Could tascam do a firmware update where you could you select either the the headphone dial for headphone or for the camera output?

PS: All the screens are not covered in the manual. arg...

Did you try changing the Line Out output gain from LINE to CAM? There's a 30dB difference between the two.

Thank you rally_AK for your suggestion.

Have tried it with both CAM and LINE. With CAM I do get music though the noise is very apparent. When I use Line in it is better though had the camera at -12 DB and the monitor output gain level for the DR70 at -42 DB and if it is really loud music you do not hear the noise though it is still there. Tried other setting too and the noise does not go away. Using a brand new cable that I have used recently and did not have any problems.

Could be wrong here and I know you guys will correct me. Thought about this product over night and it seems to me that this is promoted as a  AUDIO/VIDEO recorder. You can adjust gain for all audio channels during recording though not video gain once you hit record. Think of it this way - most of us probably adjust gain on our preamp and recorder after hitting the "record button". What if we could not adjust mic gain after we hit record. 

My camera and the Dr70 will not let you change gain after you hit record. If you have too high of levels on the camera there is not way to correct it without stopping the recorder and adjusting the gain.  Seems tascam promoted this recorder as a audio/video and without the ability to change camera gain on the fly should of this been really be promoter as a audio recorder with video options.

I will restate this here:
"Could tascam do a firmware update and add a screen where you could you select either the the headphone dial for the headphone or for the camera output before you start recording?"

[voltronic]

Ran this with my camera. You can not set the output level for the camera once you start recording. So you need to do this before the show starts or hope you get the right setting. Also I would get static from the recording going from the camera out to the video camera input. I tried multiple setting and could not get rid of the static. Think it is the camera. Bummer!!! This is one thing I bought the recorder for.

I tried setting of -30 DB all the way to 0 DB and then the same setting on the camera and no difference- still a lot of static. Unless I can figure this out I would not record to the camera this way...and you can not adjust output volume when you hit the record button.

Could tascam do a firmware update where you could you select either the the headphone dial for headphone or for the camera output?

PS: All the screens are not covered in the manual. arg...

Did you try changing the Line Out output gain from LINE to CAM? There's a 30dB difference between the two.

Thank you rally_AK for your suggestion.

Have tried it with both CAM and LINE. With CAM I do get music though the noise is very apparent. When I use Line in it is better though had the camera at -12 DB and the monitor output gain level for the DR70 at -42 DB and if it is really loud music you do not hear the noise though it is still there. Tried other setting too and the noise does not go away. Using a brand new cable that I have used recently and did not have any problems.

Could be wrong here and I know you guys will correct me. Thought about this product over night and it seems to me that this is promoted as a  AUDIO/VIDEO recorder. You can adjust gain for all audio channels during recording though not video gain once you hit record. Think of it this way - most of us probably adjust gain on our preamp and recorder after hitting the "record button". What if we could not adjust mic gain after we hit record. 

My camera and the Dr70 will not let you change gain after you hit record. If you have too high of levels on the camera there is not way to correct it without stopping the recorder and adjusting the gain.  Seems tascam promoted this recorder as a audio/video and without the ability to change camera gain on the fly should of this been really be promoter as a audio recorder with video options.

I will restate this here:
"Could tascam do a firmware update and add a screen where you could you select either the the headphone dial for the headphone or for the camera output before you start recording?"

That wouldn't work because the  CAM / LINE out is controlled digitally, wheras the headphone wheel is just an analog pot not connected to anything in the software-controlled levels.  Unless there was a digital encoder attached to that wheel there would be no way for it to input data to the software. 

What they could possibly do in a firmware update instead is allow some limited menu functions while recording, maybe using the DATA rotary control to adjust the CAM level.  That's one of the things I'm listing in the FAQ thread under Firmware Requests.