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Author Topic: How far back is too far?  (Read 15990 times)

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Offline geoff piper

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How far back is too far?
« on: March 25, 2003, 05:38:40 PM »
Hey guys how far back is too far to run in a venue? Is everything up to the back edge of the soundboard acceptable as far as sound quality goes?

Offline creekfreak

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2003, 05:43:40 PM »
It really depends on the venue and the acoustics. For instance, in most arena's the closer the better. But I have found the opposite to be true in a few venue's, all depends on where the sweet spot is. Case in point is the Webester Theater in Hartford, CT. FOB upfront in there and the tapes sound like dodo. Move back dead center behind the board and it sounds 10 times better
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Offline geoff piper

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2003, 05:47:20 PM »
anyone have experience with venunes like SPAC and Tweeter center in Camden, NJ, Darien lake and Meadows... I am just wondering becuase I'm kinda worried that my seats are going to be in the 30x-40x level and want to know if its worth running

Offline creekfreak

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2003, 07:32:12 PM »
300's at Darien lake will be fine, that taper section for Trey was in the 300's tapes came out nice. A lot of people tape at the edge of the lawn, but I don't see how that would sound good, get's a little boomey under the tent at Darien, have your hypers ready unless you can get dead center up front.
It is company policy never to imply ownership in the event of a dildo - We have to use the indefinite article; "A" dildo, never: "YOUR" dildo.
In Tyler we Trust

And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, ooh ooh ooh, the sky is the limit!

My Current Rig:2004 Subaru WRX STI, Stage 3, 360hp, 380lb-ft

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2003, 07:42:31 PM »
My philosophy is, at least for the bigger shows, the closer the better, because you know for damn sure there are other tapers farther back!

Daryan

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2003, 08:11:03 PM »
That's one of the big reason's I love the Allmans. They let you tape where ever you can score tickets....wish more bands did that.
It is company policy never to imply ownership in the event of a dildo - We have to use the indefinite article; "A" dildo, never: "YOUR" dildo.
In Tyler we Trust

And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, ooh ooh ooh, the sky is the limit!

My Current Rig:2004 Subaru WRX STI, Stage 3, 360hp, 380lb-ft

Offline hippies

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2003, 09:59:46 PM »
300's at Darien lake will be fine, that taper section for Trey was in the 300's tapes came out nice. A lot of people tape at the edge of the lawn, but I don't see how that would sound good, get's a little boomey under the tent at Darien, have your hypers ready unless you can get dead center up front.

reason they tape on the FOL at Darien Lake is because of the proximity of some smokin' repeator stacks that hang on the back of the 'tent'.  the front of the 'lawn' is only separated from these stacks by maybe a 10' wide walking path/ chain link fence.  that, and the pole the stack is mounted on leans back towards the lawn as well.    

ostensibly, you can make a 'stack tape' directly from front of lawn.  have done it.  sounds fantastic.  got some sick Keller/ Ratdog/ Karl Denson from 'So Many Roads' tour a coupla years ago.  i can provide samples if anyone wants.  

peace

~S

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2003, 10:06:14 PM »
I was planning on getting mics in the next few weeks, my original plan was MG M300's but since i have not bought them yet that might change. Now if i run from the 300's will i be able to tell or will it sound closer to the source than it is? Thanks again

Offline creekfreak

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2003, 10:10:31 PM »
nice, I totally forgot about the repeaters, will have to keep that in mind next time I tape at Darien.

The M300's are fixed cards so know it won't sound closer that it is. For that sound you really need hyper or shotgun caps.
It is company policy never to imply ownership in the event of a dildo - We have to use the indefinite article; "A" dildo, never: "YOUR" dildo.
In Tyler we Trust

And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, ooh ooh ooh, the sky is the limit!

My Current Rig:2004 Subaru WRX STI, Stage 3, 360hp, 380lb-ft

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2003, 11:57:12 PM »
Geoff,

Get the m210's.  They are not all that much more and you can change capsules...and sound better!  Then save up, and get the cards when you get the loot.  I run strictly cards at the moment and they are incredible.  Probably the last pair of mics I will ever use (well, sd mics anyway).  

Daryan

Offline geoff piper

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2003, 12:06:00 AM »
Geoff,

Get the m210's.  They are not all that much more and you can change capsules...and sound better!  Then save up, and get the cards when you get the loot.  I run strictly cards at the moment and they are incredible.  Probably the last pair of mics I will ever use (well, sd mics anyway).  

Daryan

how much would a set run me? behind it i would be running PS2>Line transformers>D-100...

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2003, 08:08:33 AM »
http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1437;start=15

;)

ahhh yes... completely forgot about that... do the 210's come up for sale use once in a while? and what kinda of price should i expect? In case i talk to gprime and they dont go for that deal

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2003, 09:41:06 AM »
That's one of the big reason's I love the Allmans. They let you tape where ever you can score tickets....wish more bands did that.

They do, the ABB and DMB are the two bands that are the most well known for having the most relaxed taping policy....

Nick

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2003, 09:58:37 AM »
GPrime no longer sells the Gefells.  Check out Gotham Audio Canada for good prices on the MG mics.  They don't accept credit cards, but if you have the cash ready, you can get a really good deal.
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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2003, 10:02:12 AM »
The Flecktones allow taping from wherever, too, although some venues are d|cks about it and won't let you in with your gear...

Geoff, I just bought a pair of gefell M300's.  I love the first two tapes I pulled with them...  I considered the 210's, but decided to buy a wmod UA5 at the same time, and didn't have enough for the 210's and the wmod UA5.  

So far I'm not at all regretting my decision at all...  When I was doing research, I d/led lots of shows (with all sorts of mics), and the M300 and M210's sound so similar IMO the real reason for buying the 210's is if you want hyper caps...  I know lots of people disagree, but I trusted my ears on this one and am very happy :)

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2003, 10:08:20 AM »
That's one of the big reason's I love the Allmans. They let you tape where ever you can score tickets....wish more bands did that.

They do, the ABB and DMB are the two bands that are the most well known for having the most relaxed taping policy....

Nick

yep, there are others.  isn't Derek Trucks Band the same way?  we've got 5th row DFC seats for a really nice Theatre in Milwaukee in a couple weeks.  planning on taping from there.  ;)




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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2003, 10:28:17 AM »
That's one of the big reason's I love the Allmans. They let you tape where ever you can score tickets....wish more bands did that.

They do, the ABB and DMB are the two bands that are the most well known for having the most relaxed taping policy....

Nick

yep, there are others.  isn't Derek Trucks Band the same way?  we've got 5th row DFC seats for a really nice Theatre in Milwaukee in a couple weeks.  planning on taping from there.  ;)





You'r right, I just tend to get a little defensive when DMB is left off of a liberal taping policy discussion.....whether you like 'em or not....so yes, I forgot a few bands as well...thanks for keeping me straight Scott....

Nick

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2003, 10:31:54 AM »
The Flecktones allow taping from wherever, too, although some venues are d|cks about it and won't let you in with your gear...

Geoff, I just bought a pair of gefell M300's.  I love the first two tapes I pulled with them...  I considered the 210's, but decided to buy a wmod UA5 at the same time, and didn't have enough for the 210's and the wmod UA5.  

So far I'm not at all regretting my decision at all...  When I was doing research, I d/led lots of shows (with all sorts of mics), and the M300 and M210's sound so similar IMO the real reason for buying the 210's is if you want hyper caps...  I know lots of people disagree, but I trusted my ears on this one and am very happy :)

how far back have you tried them?

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2003, 10:32:33 AM »
DTB is even more lenient than the Allmans.  Only issue is if they project images on the backdrop, then you can't set up in the line of the projector.  I have only seen them do this once, when the Brotherhood of Sound and Light was on three shows with them.  Otherwise, its anything goes.  Totally nice soundguy!

5th row may be a bit too close for DTB.  You may want to investigate trading them for seats a bit farther back.  I taped the group in a theater from the 10th row and that was about the minimum without getting holes in the soundstage and capturing the vocals.
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Offline creekfreak

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2003, 10:32:53 AM »
hehe, I just mentioned the Allman's because I have seen them, never seen DMB, not a big fan, but I do know they allow you to tape where ever you want.

Not sure on DTB, pretty sure it's the same thing, I saw in back in November in a real small club here in ROchester, no seats so I am not sure how they are with seats. Have fun at Trucks, he really rips it up with that band of his.
It is company policy never to imply ownership in the event of a dildo - We have to use the indefinite article; "A" dildo, never: "YOUR" dildo.
In Tyler we Trust

And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, ooh ooh ooh, the sky is the limit!

My Current Rig:2004 Subaru WRX STI, Stage 3, 360hp, 380lb-ft

Offline hippies

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2003, 11:46:16 AM »
will havta see how wide/ deep the Pit is at this Theatre.  been there, but it's been a while.  depending on how far back from Stage Row 5 actually is will make my decision for me if i have to move, i guess.  really nice Theatre.

http://www.pabsttheater.org/history/architect.lasso

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2003, 11:49:00 AM »
just make sure--if you are farther back than you'd like--that you dont run your mics up too high.  If your mics are pointing at the top of the stacks, you wont be getting the sound that is intended for you to hear.  Even at the back of a pavilion, like at shorline, dont run em too high.  
Just remember that the soundman sets up the stacks to be the best sounding at head level, no matter where you are...that's why 7-9 feet is recommended...but thats in theory.  Whether or not it actually is happening is a different story.  Sound systems like the V-Dosc is a line array system which is intended to have the same quality sound whether you are up front or farther back.
Just posting my 2cents
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Offline geoff piper

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2003, 11:51:12 AM »
just make sure--if you are farther back than you'd like--that you dont run your mics up too high.  If your mics are pointing at the top of the stacks, you wont be getting the sound that is intended for you to hear.  Even at the back of a pavilion, like at shorline, dont run em too high.  
Just remember that the soundman sets up the stacks to be the best sounding at head level, no matter where you are...that's why 7-9 feet is recommended...but thats in theory.  Whether or not it actually is happening is a different story.  Sound systems like the V-Dosc is a line array system which is intended to have the same quality sound whether you are up front or farther back.
Just posting my 2cents
Phil

unfortunatly running at 7-9 feet at a few of these show will get too much of little girls screaming  :P but its good to know.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2003, 11:51:38 AM by geoff piper »

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2003, 01:19:02 PM »
key word...is "a few"
Phil
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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2003, 04:25:15 PM »
so your opinion is to run mics at 7-9 feet from the back of pavillion's regardless eh Phil?  hmm interesting.  to me, where and how high to run varies greatly depending on the artist/ mic-capsule choice/ stack array/ location/ crowd/ etc.

nice to meet ya, Phil.  how long ya been taping with your own mics?  what kinda mics/ rig do you own, and where have you been testing out this standard 7-9 foot theory?  you have me extremely curious now as to the basis in real world experience for this theory of yours.  ;)  

peace

~S      
« Last Edit: March 26, 2003, 04:29:46 PM by hippies »

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2003, 04:52:51 PM »
The only time I have run that low was at show where the speakers where sitting on the ground and I was up real close with minimal crowd.
It is company policy never to imply ownership in the event of a dildo - We have to use the indefinite article; "A" dildo, never: "YOUR" dildo.
In Tyler we Trust

And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, ooh ooh ooh, the sky is the limit!

My Current Rig:2004 Subaru WRX STI, Stage 3, 360hp, 380lb-ft

Offline hippies

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2003, 05:11:24 PM »
right.  or in a smaller club or something, i agree completely.  

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2003, 06:07:29 PM »
Well i got 3 of the 6 shows i requested through warehouse... not seat assignments either so my rig decision has to wait some more for seat assigments and see how ticketmaster treats me... >:( :(
« Last Edit: March 26, 2003, 06:16:56 PM by geoff piper »

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2003, 09:18:45 PM »
Geoff, I just got the Gefell's, so I haven't taped too much with them yet ;)  

That said, I don't go to many arena shows.  My wife loves DMB, so those are the biggest shows we tape.  I'm taping D+T next Monday, so I'll let you know what I think then.  We're pretty much DFC, but waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back ;)

My normal taping scene is small clubs (<250 or so people) or medium venues (<1500 or so)...  For me, the M300's are working out really well.  I'm listening to the Guster show I taped last night at Bogart's, a pretty crappy sounding venue, and it sounds fantastic.

Of course, I taped from the middle of the floor :D

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2003, 09:20:55 PM »
Oh, and about the "sound guy mixes for best sound at head level theory."

How many soundboards/sound engineers are at YOUR head level?  None, they're all raised...  Or they couldn't see over your head!

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2003, 09:42:44 PM »
Geoff, I just got the Gefell's, so I haven't taped too much with them yet ;)  

That said, I don't go to many arena shows.  My wife loves DMB, so those are the biggest shows we tape.  I'm taping D+T next Monday, so I'll let you know what I think then.  We're pretty much DFC, but waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back ;)

My normal taping scene is small clubs (<250 or so people) or medium venues (<1500 or so)...  For me, the M300's are working out really well.  I'm listening to the Guster show I taped last night at Bogart's, a pretty crappy sounding venue, and it sounds fantastic.

Of course, I taped from the middle of the floor :D

let me know how the D&T show comes out... in fact after conversion if you could, could you upload it to my friends server... BTW what are you running infront of it

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2003, 09:59:22 PM »
M300 > wmod UA5 > optical Nomad JB3

(soon to be a lappy if I can get my damn Dell capturing via USB ;)

Offline Nick Culbreth

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2003, 11:27:40 PM »
ducati, what d+t show are you taping?

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2003, 02:12:55 AM »
that's the only place to tape at bogarts!!!!!!!!!!!   8)
dave
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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2003, 08:48:41 AM »
ShepzToobes: Hehe yep, they want you behind the board and it sounds like a$$ back there, IMO.  

I'm actually quite surprised, because people were bumping into the mic stand every 3-4 minutes (and the one drunk a-hole who kept trying to grab it because he was 16 and the world revolved around his nat-light-can-drinking-a$$ did I mention how much I hate all ages shows??), and I don't hear it at all on the tape.  I guess shockmounts really work??

I don't live in cinti, I live in Columbus.. never heard of Joe, sorry :)

nmculbreth: I'm taping D+T at Millett in Oxford (Miami University, my alma mater)...  I met a guy at the Guster show who has 11th row center tiks.  I wasn't able to convince him that trading his tik for mine was a good idea...  Come on, man, for the tape!!  Damn, that would sound nice :)

Offline Nick Culbreth

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2003, 09:38:24 AM »
where are you sitting?  i'll be sitting in section 4 row b, you are welcome to clamp on my stand if you'd like.

Offline ducati

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2003, 09:45:05 AM »
You don't happen to have an extra clamp, do ya?  ;)

You know, I can't recall where our seats are.  Section 102, I think, not sure what row but I think L?  Sounds suspiciously high to me  >:(

I can't recall the seating arrangements there, though, row L might be fairly close to the front of 102?  If it is, it won't be too bad..  And we're in seats 1 and 2, so I can put the stand in the aisle and not between my legs.  But...

To answer the original poster's question, this may indeed be TOO FAR BACK ;)

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2003, 09:49:59 AM »
Hey, I keep forgetting to ask...  Did you make the Guster show?  

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2003, 10:38:29 AM »
hey ducati,

i am from indiana originally.  haven't lived there for over 5 years now.  i am in israel at the moment.  when i get back to the states this summer my wife and i will be moving to cincy.  i'm sure we will see each other around once that happens.

joe runs the 170's.  he does many a show at bogarts.  i can almost guarantee if he is there he is the only guy running them.  anyway, he's a good guy to know.  you can look for him the next time you are there....

dave

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2003, 10:42:30 AM »
Yeah, I was the only one with mics setup, as far as I could tell...  I'm heading down to Bogart's for Scofield (I'm pumped, seeing him twice that week), maybe he'll be there!  Does he run a laptop by chance?

Cool you're coming back to OH!  I haven't made it down to cinti nearly enough (my sis lives there, as well as a bunch of friends) but always seem to make it there for shows, so I'm sure we'll see each other around ;)  

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2003, 11:05:36 AM »
i haven't seen him since the claypool show last summer.  
he wasn't running a lappy then.
did you tape the cincy phish shows??
dave
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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2003, 11:20:11 AM »
Just wondering, I saw a guy up here at Galactic running LD mics (I didn't look to see what kind) > lappy...

Nope, didn't go to any of the current Phish shows.  After listening to some of the tapes, tho, I sure wish I had!!   :o

To be honest I was Phish'd out years ago.  It wasn't until I heard a tape from Vegas shows that I thought I might want to consider going to another Phish show!!  

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2003, 11:34:04 AM »
so your opinion is to run mics at 7-9 feet from the back of pavillion's regardless eh Phil?  hmm interesting.  to me, where and how high to run varies greatly depending on the artist/ mic-capsule choice/ stack array/ location/ crowd/ etc.

nice to meet ya, Phil.  how long ya been taping with your own mics?  what kinda mics/ rig do you own, and where have you been testing out this standard 7-9 foot theory?  you have me extremely curious now as to the basis in real world experience for this theory of yours.  ;)  

peace

~S      


Scott-
I have a quesiton to ask you before I get into my reasoning for my post earlier...What are you proposing by questioning my response to this post?  I think 7-9 feet is a wide range depending on venue size/mic location/cap's/etc....what would you suggest?  

I have been in this "scene" for 5 years.  I have been taping shows since 98, and although I hadn't owned a rig back then,  I have heard hundreds of tapes from different sources in different locations, all while comparing different sources to each other.  
 So as far as my personal taping experience with my own rig, I do not own one personally, but I have brought my friends rigs in to a few shows and been very happy with the results!
I was referring to running the mics at the 7-9 foot range because if the soundman and system engineer are doing their job, the best sound is supposed to be at head level.   You know as well as everyone else, that taping is hit or miss.
 I have been fortunate enough to realize that this works for me, so I am wondering...What works for you?
peace
PHiL
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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2003, 12:20:23 PM »
i didn't make it to guster... i sold off my ps-2 and my mp-2 hasn't arrived yet so i had no way of powering my mics.

as for millett, it is a small venue so taping from section 102 might be ok.  i was in the same section but was able to upgrade my seat.  i don't have an extra clamp but if you can find one you are more than welcome to clamp on my stand.


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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2003, 12:26:42 PM »
You could have patched off my UA5 :)

Yeah, I was pretty OK with section 102, way better than sitting at the side!!!  :D

How did you upgrade your seat?

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2003, 12:57:30 PM »
warehouse instant ticketing rules!

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2003, 12:59:06 PM »
My wife has been bugging me to join warehouse (she is a big fan of dave in all his iterations)...  I have always thought it seemed like a waste of $$ since we probably see them twice a year.

Maybe not?  How long have you belonged, and do you think it's worth the $$?

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2003, 01:03:08 PM »
i definately think it is worth the money.  i was able to score a pair in section 102 from wh lottery and then get a single in section 4 through instant ticketing.  i've been a member 2 years (maybe 3) and i've had pretty good luck so far.

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2003, 01:18:47 PM »
Scott-
I have a quesiton to ask you before I get into my reasoning for my post earlier...What are you proposing by questioning my response to this post?  I think 7-9 feet is a wide range depending on venue size/mic location/cap's/etc....what would you suggest?  

I have been in this "scene" for 5 years.  I have been taping shows since 98, and although I hadn't owned a rig back then,  I have heard hundreds of tapes from different sources in different locations, all while comparing different sources to each other.  
 So as far as my personal taping experience with my own rig, I do not own one personally, but I have brought my friends rigs in to a few shows and been very happy with the results!
I was referring to running the mics at the 7-9 foot range because if the soundman and system engineer are doing their job, the best sound is supposed to be at head level.   You know as well as everyone else, that taping is hit or miss.
 I have been fortunate enough to realize that this works for me, so I am wondering...What works for you?
peace
PHiL


hey Phil,

not intending to ruffle your feathers at all.  what i am intending by questioning your response is to get a little bit clearer picture as to where you're coming from making blanket statements like this.  i simply don't feel that anyone with much actual taping experience would buy into this theory which you are proposing as Gospel.  or maybe i am reading you wrong?  if you truly believe that the best sound is at head height, then why run at 7-9 feet?

you state that you have compared tape sources for years without much actual taping experience.  okay, cool.  but how many comparisons have you done on similar rigs run from the exact same location, but at different heights?  if you have any such comparisons, i'd love to hear them.  

in my previous post, i stated that situations vary greatly  from show to show.  many factors will determine the best location/ height.  making a blanket statement that one should run their mics at 7-9 feet is a misnomer imho.  

i also think that the idea that sound guys attempt to work the sound so as to be most pleasing at head height is a misconception.  closer to the truth is that they try to equalize the sound throughout the venue.  most outdoor Sheds/ Amps are sloped, so the main sound pressure has to be directed up slightly to travel cleanest to the rear of the Venue.  some Venues utilize repeater stacks which would minimize this need.

transfer your theory to indoor Arenas for a minute.  if the sound crew is as you postulate, working the sound to be most beneficial at head height, then my question would be, head height to whom?  people in the front row?  people at the rear floor?  first row loge?  back row mezanine?  i think you start to see the problem with your theory.

now place yourself in a stadium situation.  Soldier Field for example.  Or Folsom Field.  again, i ask you whom the sound crew is trying to hit at head height with the sound?  my point is that in reality, the sound is more correctly 'summed' to sound roughly equal to all seats in the house.  even this effort almost always falls short.  

this inequity in sound is why you see rabid FOB tapers.  this is why you see 14-16' stands in OTSs at Arenas/ outdoor Stadiums.  this is why you see 16' stands hugging the stacks at DMB shows.

you seem to have postulated this 7-9' theory in your few shows actually running mics.  that's great if this works for you.  more power to ya, bro!  just please don't get upset if more experienced folks disagree with you.  i don't think you'll find many backers for your all encompassing 7-9' theory.

peace

~Scott  

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2003, 01:58:05 PM »
My wife has been bugging me to join warehouse (she is a big fan of dave in all his iterations)...  I have always thought it seemed like a waste of $$ since we probably see them twice a year.

Maybe not?  How long have you belonged, and do you think it's worth the $$?

im a fourth year and just got pardon my mouth @ss raped by them 3 of 6 shows i know people that are 1st years and got 5 of 5 or more. I know i should be grateful for 3 but after being denied for D&t im kinda disappointed again

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2003, 02:17:00 PM »
My wife has been bugging me to join warehouse (she is a big fan of dave in all his iterations)...  I have always thought it seemed like a waste of $$ since we probably see them twice a year.

Maybe not?  How long have you belonged, and do you think it's worth the $$?

im a fourth year and just got pardon my mouth @ss raped by them 3 of 6 shows i know people that are 1st years and got 5 of 5 or more. I know i should be grateful for 3 but after being denied for D&t im kinda disappointed again

So I am a 1/99 member, and usually get within the first 10 rows for shows.  D&T was my first experience at getting totally declined for all 5 requests...as a result of them doing away with seniority for that tour.  Happily I can say that I did get 2 of 2 for the shows I requested this summer (would love to go to more, but getting married, and money and vacation time is a bit scarce)....we will have to see though how happy I am when the seat locations come out.  But as much as I may bitch, the Warehouse is a nice alternative to ticketmaster, who has screwed me more times than not.

Nick

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2003, 02:18:37 PM »
I never thought of that.  Ticketbastard sux.

So you don't have to pay "convienience fees" and such?  You just pay face ticket value?

That in itself would pay for membership.

Tim

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2003, 02:21:44 PM »
Quote
i also think that the idea that sound guys attempt to work the sound so as to be most pleasing at head height is a misconception.  closer to the truth is that they try to equalize the sound throughout the venue.  most outdoor Sheds/ Amps are sloped, so the main sound pressure has to be directed up slightly to travel cleanest to the rear of the Venue.  some Venues utilize repeater stacks which would minimize this need.

transfer your theory to indoor Arenas for a minute.  if the sound crew is as you postulate, working the sound to be most beneficial at head height, then my question would be, head height to whom?  people in the front row?  people at the rear floor?  first row loge?  back row mezanine?  i think you start to see the problem with your theory.

now place yourself in a stadium situation.  Soldier Field for example.  Or Folsom Field.  again, i ask you whom the sound crew is trying to hit at head height with the sound?  my point is that in reality, the sound is more correctly 'summed' to sound roughly equal to all seats in the house.  even this effort almost always falls short.  

this inequity in sound is why you see rabid FOB tapers.  this is why you see 14-16' stands in OTSs at Arenas/ outdoor Stadiums.  this is why you see 16' stands hugging the stacks at DMB shows.

you seem to have postulated this 7-9' theory in your few shows actually running mics.  that's great if this works for you.  more power to ya, bro!  just please don't get upset if more experienced folks disagree with you.  i don't think you'll find many backers for your all encompassing 7-9' theory.


Actually Scott if the band is utilizing a line-array PA system that system is optimized for each cabinet to deliver it's best sound at head height to specific points in the venue. So running a stand above 9 feet or so for a line-array PA is probably not going to get you the best results. Tolerable results perhaps but probably a bit bright.

As for people running stands over 10' or so I think they are wasting their time and I think Phil is absolutely correct in stating that you will get your best results running 7-9'. Of course that should just be a starting or reference point and you should adjust to the situation, just like all things in taping..

And FWIW I have been taping for 6 years now, most of it with my own rig and I also have quite a bit of FOH experience in a variety of venues and on a variety of pa's.... I hope my Curriculum Vitae measures up...

Tim
« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 02:25:10 PM by Tim »

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2003, 02:26:54 PM »
agreed, Tim.  

my stand generally falls within these heights as well.  alls i'm saying is no one can make a blanket statement that this setup is best in ALL situations.  as i was reading Phil, that's what i was getting from him.

~S  

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2003, 02:30:11 PM »
yeah you didn't seem like one of those w00ks with the 17 footer swaying in the breeze!  :D

had one of those guys next to me night one of vegas and behind me night two of vegas. and he had LD's up there si it looked really unstable...the worst part though was the 12 channel Mackie mixer he brought with him and the car battery he used to power it!

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2003, 02:45:30 PM »
My wife has been bugging me to join warehouse (she is a big fan of dave in all his iterations)...  I have always thought it seemed like a waste of $$ since we probably see them twice a year.

Maybe not?  How long have you belonged, and do you think it's worth the $$?

im a fourth year and just got pardon my mouth @ss raped by them 3 of 6 shows i know people that are 1st years and got 5 of 5 or more. I know i should be grateful for 3 but after being denied for D&t im kinda disappointed again

So I am a 1/99 member, and usually get within the first 10 rows for shows.  D&T was my first experience at getting totally declined for all 5 requests...as a result of them doing away with seniority for that tour.  Happily I can say that I did get 2 of 2 for the shows I requested this summer (would love to go to more, but getting married, and money and vacation time is a bit scarce)....we will have to see though how happy I am when the seat locations come out.  But as much as I may bitch, the Warehouse is a nice alternative to ticketmaster, who has screwed me more times than not.

Nick

last year i didnt get denied but i got crappy seats all around, 2 lawn for spac darien was in the 400s, Buffalo were ok and so were toronto... for the winter i got section 120 at rochester and 101 at albany.... almost couldnt see at albany... and at rochester i got upgraded by one of the tapers i ate dinner with that night... Thanks to that dinner I am now hopefuly going to be come a memeber of the taping community

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2003, 02:59:13 PM »
haha....i remember that shit tim!!!!   :P
what did you get like 1/2 seat after the mixer got 4???   ;)
good times....
dave
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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2003, 03:02:05 PM »
I was definitely a bit crowded... it was fun watching him though after we talked him into getting that piece of chocolate...  ;D

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2003, 03:10:16 PM »
wtf.....chocolate for a blank DAT?????   8)
nah, i don't want any chocolate....
but dude, it's not really just chocolate....
lol......
dave
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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2003, 03:11:51 PM »
some of the funniest shit I have ever seen in the section.. at least as far as dealings with sober people go!

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2003, 03:45:17 PM »
Good day today... Scored tickets to the albany NCAA regional... GO CUSE and one of my room mates has 2 12th row tickets for SPAC night one that he wants to get rid of

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2003, 04:15:21 PM »
wtf.....chocolate for a blank DAT?????   8)
nah, i don't want any chocolate....
but dude, it's not really just chocolate....
lol......
dave

you guys are just plain BAD!  remind me to be on my guard whenever we hook up!  hehe...  ;)  

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2003, 04:20:41 PM »
Tim-
Thanks for your addition to my post about sound at head height when using line array sound systems!  
Most of you will know that the sound difference whether you are 5'8 or 6'2 really isn't going to make that big of a difference whether you are your ears or mics.  Now, whether or not you have your mics at 6'6 or 9'6, that's what's going to make a difference, no matter how far away.  You just don;t want to overshoot the stacks!

Mini-Me update....if you look for it, you will find it!

PHiL
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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2003, 04:25:24 PM »
haha....scott, definitely looking forward to hooking up at alpine!!!
tim will be there too!!!!  we'll be nice....   ;)
dave
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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2003, 05:59:40 PM »
Tim-
Thanks for your addition to my post about sound at head height when using line array sound systems!  
Most of you will know that the sound difference whether you are 5'8 or 6'2 really isn't going to make that big of a difference whether you are your ears or mics.  Now, whether or not you have your mics at 6'6 or 9'6, that's what's going to make a difference, no matter how far away.  You just don;t want to overshoot the stacks!

Mini-Me update....if you look for it, you will find it!

PHiL

sorry Phil, but your theory is just that.  theory.  

differences in SPL are MUCH more noticable along the horizontal plane than the vertical IMHO.  proximity to Source is also of utmost importance.  to your way of thinking, there is no need to search out the 'sweet spot' in a given Venue, as the 'sweet spot' is anywhere in the Venue at head height.

sorry, i'm not buying it.

this theory looks real nice on paper.  but unfortunately, most touring bands do not have the time/ money to worry about such things.  these stacks are bolted/ chained together the same way, hung in the same array from night to night, city to city, and Venue to Venue.  the stacks are hung, the cables are run, and the rest of the tweaking is done through the mixing console.

it would be nice if sound systems/ engineers worked the way you describe.  but until the day they do, i'll let you have the rear of the Venue at 6'6", and i'll be alongside the other tapers pulling the phatty tapes from the 'sweet spot'.

send ya a copy.  ;)

peace

~S


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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2003, 06:07:10 PM »
quick question guys the friend i was getting my d100 from decided that he still needed it, so would it be my best bet to go new or used for my dat?

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2003, 06:09:31 PM »
I think new is always the best way to go with DAT if you have the money to spare.
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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2003, 06:11:56 PM »
FWIW, a good friend of mine is a professional sound engineer (he designs bigass sound rigs, think Browns Stadium and Tiger Stadium and the like, all the way down to small clubs).  His $.02 about line arrays is that he will design them to "box" a venue with sound.  That means he'll box the entire venue, front to back, as best as possible.  

« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 06:13:18 PM by ducati »

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2003, 06:12:12 PM »
Scott-
You must be having a bad day!  :'(
Everyone else knows that if your stand is too high, it will not sound good...even in the sweet spot!  
I love the sweet spot as much as the next person, but systems that WSP and SCI have are line-array systems which is supposed to sound good everywhere in the room.  Believe me, I know that there are sections that sound better than others..ie the soundboard and taperssection.  I am not blanketing a statement, I know what i am talking about and i think that when reading this post, you are the only one who disagrees with the fact that if you are too high up, it doesn;t sound as good!  
I'll send you my vegas tapes and cheese fromthe fillmore that were at 7 ft and let me know how they sound....oh yeah, do FOBers run at 6ft b/c it sounds better at "head height" or b/c they are worried of being caught?  Im gonna guess both!
Equalizing the sound throughout the room also means make it sound good where people's heads are.
So if your stand falls within the 7-9 ft height why argue with my "theory"?
Phil

email me if you would like to chat more b/c i dont think people want to read this anymore
"Then you have those who are completely loyal to Trey. Of course, they are the Republicans. Trey can play horribly, make mistakes, probably lie to the audience yet his backers will not waiver in their staunch support of him." | You may ask your self, how do you get a free bottle of champagne at dinner?  "Guest on Guest Violence"
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Offline hippies

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2003, 06:17:58 PM »
if i was just starting out now, i wouldn't buy a DAT at all.  have you checked into the Nomad JB3?  HD recorder and lightning quick transfer to computer.  check into:

http://nomadworld.com/

hope this helps...

~S

Offline ducati

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2003, 06:20:23 PM »
I run a NJB3 and love the thing...  I'll second that.

If it were 24/96, I'd never get rid of it.  But as a DAT replacement, I'm loving it.

Offline geoff piper

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2003, 06:26:45 PM »
doesnt that nomad tape as mp3s? and would that mean a lossy form? if not what is the price on one of those

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2003, 06:39:20 PM »
Nomad records in mp3 or wav format, and can be had for 250 on ebay, and about the same from various retailers.  I payed 215 for mine off of ebay, brand new in box, with an additional battery.  I will tell you, they usually are ~250 bucks.

Daryan

Screw a new DAT, get the JB3

Offline geoff piper

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2003, 06:41:56 PM »
Nomad records in mp3 or wav format, and can be had for 250 on ebay, and about the same from various retailers.  I payed 215 for mine off of ebay, brand new in box, with an additional battery.  I will tell you, they usually are ~250 bucks.

Daryan

Screw a new DAT, get the JB3

so there is an option to record in wav? and this means that there is no loss?

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2003, 06:45:46 PM »
Scott-
You must be having a bad day!  :'(
Everyone else knows that if your stand is too high, it will not sound good...even in the sweet spot!  
I love the sweet spot as much as the next person, but systems that WSP and SCI have are line-array systems which is supposed to sound good everywhere in the room.  Believe me, I know that there are sections that sound better than others..ie the soundboard and taperssection.  I am not blanketing a statement, I know what i am talking about and i think that when reading this post, you are the only one who disagrees with the fact that if you are too high up, it doesn;t sound as good!  
I'll send you my vegas tapes and cheese fromthe fillmore that were at 7 ft and let me know how they sound....oh yeah, do FOBers run at 6ft b/c it sounds better at "head height" or b/c they are worried of being caught?  Im gonna guess both!
Equalizing the sound throughout the room also means make it sound good where people's heads are.
So if your stand falls within the 7-9 ft height why argue with my "theory"?
Phil

email me if you would like to chat more b/c i dont think people want to read this anymore

Phil, why 'must' i be having a bad day?  because i don't agree with your opinion/ theory?
with all due respect, that's a little presumptous of you, don't you think? fact is, i simply disagree with you!    

the reason more folks are not responding is because this discussion is buried 5 pages deep in an unassuming thread.  perhaps we should move this discussion out into the light of day, eh?

i've created a Poll that should help us shed a little more light on this topic.  

peace

~S

« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 07:22:55 PM by hippies »

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2003, 06:48:55 PM »
so there is an option to record in wav? and this means that there is no loss?

right on brutha man!  ;)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 09:21:53 PM by hippies »

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2003, 09:09:14 PM »
well if you disagree say so...dont try to "ruffle feathers"--as you put it
just b/c i dont have my personal rig, but i have been taping for 5 years, i still can know what Im talking about.

we'll leave it as this.  
good luck on the poll
Phil
"Then you have those who are completely loyal to Trey. Of course, they are the Republicans. Trey can play horribly, make mistakes, probably lie to the audience yet his backers will not waiver in their staunch support of him." | You may ask your self, how do you get a free bottle of champagne at dinner?  "Guest on Guest Violence"
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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2003, 09:41:45 PM »
well if you disagree say so...dont try to "ruffle feathers"--as you put it
just b/c i dont have my personal rig, but i have been taping for 5 years, i still can know what Im talking about.

we'll leave it as this.  
good luck on the poll
Phil

fair enough.  

and if you don't care to have your opinions disagreed with/ have a meaningful discussion of debatable points/ be asked to back up a percieved controversial opinion,  then please say so as well.  

myself, i thought this was a 'Discussion Forum' and by posting, one is by proxy leaving their opinion open to debate/ discussion.  at least that's the way i personally look at it, and try to bear this in mind when commenting publicly.  others may feel differently, and i respect that.

what i would ask of you though, is that when reading what i have to say that you read what is on the page, and take the comments at face value.  trying to read inuendo over the internet is a tough task and can be influenced greatly by one's own outlook.  

i sincerely hope you take this in the kind manner it is intended.  have a good evening brutha!  ;D
« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 09:51:36 PM by hippies »

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2003, 01:07:14 AM »
good post scott!!!!!!!!!!!!! way to take handle of that thread..........nice wat to put an opinion..... ;D...fo real....peace guys and happy taping......... ;)

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2003, 08:03:46 AM »
This goes back a page but...... yeah WSP ans SCI use VSDOC, but it will still sound like utter garbage in some locations.  If you know your audio and environment you will notice cabinet toe in and spacing, first reflection points and rear sound reinf.  You still must seek out the "sweet spot."  Do I run my mics at 6'...no, but do I run them at 12'..no  I run them were I see fit.  This might be 7' or it might be 9', it really depends on what the roof construction is, relationship of myself to the high/mid stacks to lows (subs), etc....

BTW, how did we get 2 topics in one thread.......
SC

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2003, 09:59:17 AM »
BTW, how did we get 2 topics in one thread.......
SC

welcome to TS.com... you better read every thread because you can never tell what's going on just by the subject heading!  ;D

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2003, 10:43:36 AM »
BTW, how did we get 2 topics in one thread.......
SC

sorry that was my fault. Didnt feel like starting another thread. I figured people are already viewing so why not ask here.

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #83 on: March 29, 2003, 12:45:51 PM »
ticketmaster did me ok for the rest of the shows i wanted. I got 200 row a at tweeter that is dead center about 30 rows back. So that should be good. right?

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #84 on: March 29, 2003, 01:14:43 PM »
key word...is "a few"
Phil


like OMG



how true my frined, how true
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Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2003, 01:32:50 PM »
Quote:
>this theory looks real nice on paper.  but unfortunately, most touring bands do not
>have the time/ money to worry about such things.  these stacks are bolted/ chained
>together the same way, hung in the same array from night to night, city to city, and
> Venue to Venue.  the stacks are hung, the cables are run, and the rest of the
>tweaking is done through the mixing console.

Hi All,

I've been away a bit lately but just got a chance to get some reading in.  This comment concerns me as I've always strive to assure that correct information is being shared.  I know many folks are not interested in deep system design information but since this is among my primary activities, and I work with some of the world's finest system designers, I must clearly address this issue.

While bar bands may not get the luxury of a system designer, many major touring acts do have a system engineer on the tour. Peter for SCI, three guys in rotation for DMB, two or more in rotation for Phil/Dead related bands, Panic used to have Fumi (with Andy)--I don't know their current guy.  The role of each of these guys is to set up the system, use the array calculator or have comprehensive understanding of how the system should be installed and tuned on any given night to optimize its interaction with the room and within itself.  

The rigging hardware is variable for degrees of coverage and throw distance.  Once the rough installation is complete including proper trim height and cabinet splay, the level tapering and delay times between cabinets from high-to-low (far throw to near-field downfills, frontfills, etc..)  and zone levels are all tuned for the show.  While it is not always possible to spend as many hours as desired doing this set up, the bigger touring acts are certainly implementing great care in optimizing the PA each and every day for the rooms (venue) in which it is being used.

The goal of a system engineer (not just the mix guy (front of house engineer) at the console) is to assure that each seat in the house sounds as close as possible to any other.  Of course, this is not totally possible to achieve but the idea is to keep the sound on the people (and as close to their ears as possible), off the walls, ceiling, and floor, while giving each listener the best experience possible in whatever seat they are in.

If anyone has further questions or issues about this, please feel free to inquire.

Happy Recording Everybody,

Marc


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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2003, 06:01:59 PM »
Hi All,

I've been away a bit lately but just got a chance to get some reading in.  This comment concerns me as I've always strive to assure that correct information is being shared.  I know many folks are not interested in deep system design information but since this is among my primary activities, and I work with some of the world's finest system designers, I must clearly address this issue.

<snip>

Happy Recording Everybody,

Marc

thanks for the comments, Marc.  of course we all strive to put forth the highest quality information available.  that is what this particular discussion is all about.  

not sure what it is that has you so 'concerned'.  as you quoted at the top of your post, i stated that 'most' touring bands do not have the time or money for such detailed system analysis.  you have backed this idea up with your own comments.

i will skip over your helpful technical jargon which describes what we all tend to agree that Sound Engineers are 'trying' to achieve in any given situation.

you end your statement by saying that this whole idea of every seat sounding the same is a 'goal' and not necessarily 'reality'.  i think we all agree there, and this is my own position on the issue.

so again, not sure what it is about my statement that has you so 'concerned', as it appears to me, we agree pretty closely on this one.

again, thanks for posting.

happy retailing.

peace

~S    

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2003, 06:30:12 PM »
>>Everyone else knows that if your stand is too high, it will not sound good...even in the sweet spot!  <<


but "too high" is very subjective.  there are plenty of shows where 7 feet will do me fine, and there are plenty of shows where i wish my 15 foot stand was a 17 footer...



 

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