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Author Topic: How far back is too far?  (Read 16204 times)

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Offline hippies

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2003, 06:45:46 PM »
Scott-
You must be having a bad day!  :'(
Everyone else knows that if your stand is too high, it will not sound good...even in the sweet spot!  
I love the sweet spot as much as the next person, but systems that WSP and SCI have are line-array systems which is supposed to sound good everywhere in the room.  Believe me, I know that there are sections that sound better than others..ie the soundboard and taperssection.  I am not blanketing a statement, I know what i am talking about and i think that when reading this post, you are the only one who disagrees with the fact that if you are too high up, it doesn;t sound as good!  
I'll send you my vegas tapes and cheese fromthe fillmore that were at 7 ft and let me know how they sound....oh yeah, do FOBers run at 6ft b/c it sounds better at "head height" or b/c they are worried of being caught?  Im gonna guess both!
Equalizing the sound throughout the room also means make it sound good where people's heads are.
So if your stand falls within the 7-9 ft height why argue with my "theory"?
Phil

email me if you would like to chat more b/c i dont think people want to read this anymore

Phil, why 'must' i be having a bad day?  because i don't agree with your opinion/ theory?
with all due respect, that's a little presumptous of you, don't you think? fact is, i simply disagree with you!    

the reason more folks are not responding is because this discussion is buried 5 pages deep in an unassuming thread.  perhaps we should move this discussion out into the light of day, eh?

i've created a Poll that should help us shed a little more light on this topic.  

peace

~S

« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 07:22:55 PM by hippies »

Offline hippies

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2003, 06:48:55 PM »
so there is an option to record in wav? and this means that there is no loss?

right on brutha man!  ;)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 09:21:53 PM by hippies »

Offline plucks

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2003, 09:09:14 PM »
well if you disagree say so...dont try to "ruffle feathers"--as you put it
just b/c i dont have my personal rig, but i have been taping for 5 years, i still can know what Im talking about.

we'll leave it as this.  
good luck on the poll
Phil
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Offline hippies

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2003, 09:41:45 PM »
well if you disagree say so...dont try to "ruffle feathers"--as you put it
just b/c i dont have my personal rig, but i have been taping for 5 years, i still can know what Im talking about.

we'll leave it as this.  
good luck on the poll
Phil

fair enough.  

and if you don't care to have your opinions disagreed with/ have a meaningful discussion of debatable points/ be asked to back up a percieved controversial opinion,  then please say so as well.  

myself, i thought this was a 'Discussion Forum' and by posting, one is by proxy leaving their opinion open to debate/ discussion.  at least that's the way i personally look at it, and try to bear this in mind when commenting publicly.  others may feel differently, and i respect that.

what i would ask of you though, is that when reading what i have to say that you read what is on the page, and take the comments at face value.  trying to read inuendo over the internet is a tough task and can be influenced greatly by one's own outlook.  

i sincerely hope you take this in the kind manner it is intended.  have a good evening brutha!  ;D
« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 09:51:36 PM by hippies »

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2003, 01:07:14 AM »
good post scott!!!!!!!!!!!!! way to take handle of that thread..........nice wat to put an opinion..... ;D...fo real....peace guys and happy taping......... ;)

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Offline scervin

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2003, 08:03:46 AM »
This goes back a page but...... yeah WSP ans SCI use VSDOC, but it will still sound like utter garbage in some locations.  If you know your audio and environment you will notice cabinet toe in and spacing, first reflection points and rear sound reinf.  You still must seek out the "sweet spot."  Do I run my mics at 6'...no, but do I run them at 12'..no  I run them were I see fit.  This might be 7' or it might be 9', it really depends on what the roof construction is, relationship of myself to the high/mid stacks to lows (subs), etc....

BTW, how did we get 2 topics in one thread.......
SC

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2003, 09:59:17 AM »
BTW, how did we get 2 topics in one thread.......
SC

welcome to TS.com... you better read every thread because you can never tell what's going on just by the subject heading!  ;D

Offline geoff piper

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2003, 10:43:36 AM »
BTW, how did we get 2 topics in one thread.......
SC

sorry that was my fault. Didnt feel like starting another thread. I figured people are already viewing so why not ask here.

Offline geoff piper

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #83 on: March 29, 2003, 12:45:51 PM »
ticketmaster did me ok for the rest of the shows i wanted. I got 200 row a at tweeter that is dead center about 30 rows back. So that should be good. right?

Offline mterry

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #84 on: March 29, 2003, 01:14:43 PM »
key word...is "a few"
Phil


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Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2003, 01:32:50 PM »
Quote:
>this theory looks real nice on paper.  but unfortunately, most touring bands do not
>have the time/ money to worry about such things.  these stacks are bolted/ chained
>together the same way, hung in the same array from night to night, city to city, and
> Venue to Venue.  the stacks are hung, the cables are run, and the rest of the
>tweaking is done through the mixing console.

Hi All,

I've been away a bit lately but just got a chance to get some reading in.  This comment concerns me as I've always strive to assure that correct information is being shared.  I know many folks are not interested in deep system design information but since this is among my primary activities, and I work with some of the world's finest system designers, I must clearly address this issue.

While bar bands may not get the luxury of a system designer, many major touring acts do have a system engineer on the tour. Peter for SCI, three guys in rotation for DMB, two or more in rotation for Phil/Dead related bands, Panic used to have Fumi (with Andy)--I don't know their current guy.  The role of each of these guys is to set up the system, use the array calculator or have comprehensive understanding of how the system should be installed and tuned on any given night to optimize its interaction with the room and within itself.  

The rigging hardware is variable for degrees of coverage and throw distance.  Once the rough installation is complete including proper trim height and cabinet splay, the level tapering and delay times between cabinets from high-to-low (far throw to near-field downfills, frontfills, etc..)  and zone levels are all tuned for the show.  While it is not always possible to spend as many hours as desired doing this set up, the bigger touring acts are certainly implementing great care in optimizing the PA each and every day for the rooms (venue) in which it is being used.

The goal of a system engineer (not just the mix guy (front of house engineer) at the console) is to assure that each seat in the house sounds as close as possible to any other.  Of course, this is not totally possible to achieve but the idea is to keep the sound on the people (and as close to their ears as possible), off the walls, ceiling, and floor, while giving each listener the best experience possible in whatever seat they are in.

If anyone has further questions or issues about this, please feel free to inquire.

Happy Recording Everybody,

Marc


Offline hippies

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2003, 06:01:59 PM »
Hi All,

I've been away a bit lately but just got a chance to get some reading in.  This comment concerns me as I've always strive to assure that correct information is being shared.  I know many folks are not interested in deep system design information but since this is among my primary activities, and I work with some of the world's finest system designers, I must clearly address this issue.

<snip>

Happy Recording Everybody,

Marc

thanks for the comments, Marc.  of course we all strive to put forth the highest quality information available.  that is what this particular discussion is all about.  

not sure what it is that has you so 'concerned'.  as you quoted at the top of your post, i stated that 'most' touring bands do not have the time or money for such detailed system analysis.  you have backed this idea up with your own comments.

i will skip over your helpful technical jargon which describes what we all tend to agree that Sound Engineers are 'trying' to achieve in any given situation.

you end your statement by saying that this whole idea of every seat sounding the same is a 'goal' and not necessarily 'reality'.  i think we all agree there, and this is my own position on the issue.

so again, not sure what it is about my statement that has you so 'concerned', as it appears to me, we agree pretty closely on this one.

again, thanks for posting.

happy retailing.

peace

~S    

Offline scb

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Re:How far back is too far?
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2003, 06:30:12 PM »
>>Everyone else knows that if your stand is too high, it will not sound good...even in the sweet spot!  <<


but "too high" is very subjective.  there are plenty of shows where 7 feet will do me fine, and there are plenty of shows where i wish my 15 foot stand was a 17 footer...



 

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