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Offline rigpimp

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Omnis for outdoor back ups
« on: August 07, 2015, 12:13:49 PM »
I got wind-hosed at Rockygrass this year.  The wind was horrible and I had not recorded outdoors in a while so I forgot my big ass DPAs and dead wooks.  I haven't had the juevos to listen to any of it yet since I am pretty sure what I walked away with.  (rumble-rumble!)

With that said I am considering a pair of omni's to run into channels 3 & 4 as "back ups" in a CYA effort.  When I say "no budget" please take it with a grain of salt.  It means that I'm cool with some OM1's but might also be willing to part with my CCM4 pair to get some CCM5's.

I am interested in opinions.  I also have a pair of KM100 bodies so AK30's are not totally out of the picture.
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2015, 12:33:36 PM »
An omni you are able to run in the optimal configuration is going to be far better than one you can only run in a compromised configuration. 

I'm partial to DPA 4060/4061.  For me they represent an omni price/performance sweet spot.  But in addition, and for the reason stated above, their super small size and minimal weight is crucial because I could not otherwise achieve an appropriate spacing configuration supported by a single stand when open recording outdoors, at least not easily in a visually unobtrusive way.  For two-channel use alone outdoors, I'd space omnis no less than 3'.  If they are to be mixed with a center microphone or microphone pair, better to space them 5 or 6' (basically double the spacing used alone).

A higher quality omni, used in a compromised setup with less A-B spacing, will be a step backwards rather than upwards in the quality of the resulting recording.
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Offline flipp

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2015, 01:36:29 PM »
An omni you are able to run in the optimal configuration is going to be far better than one you can only run in a compromised configuration. 

A higher quality omni, used in a compromised setup with less A-B spacing, will be a step backwards rather than upwards in the quality of the resulting recording.

true, but even a lower quality omni used in a less than optimal configuration will probably produce a recording that is at least listenable vs rumble-rumble from un or under protected cards

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2015, 02:32:34 PM »
Yes, that's the basic truth of it of course as long as something listenable is good enough.  I just figured that was assumed.  Since he's considering using high-quality omnis, I was attempting to make a finer distinction of noting a correlation between the ability of achieving an optimal configuration verses mic quality, and the effects of that relationship on the resulting recording.  With the goal being best possible recording rather than just getting something listenable which isn't swamped in wind rumble.
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Offline bryonsos

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2015, 04:21:55 PM »
http://avensonaudio.com/sto2/

Best I've heard or owned.
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Offline rigpimp

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2015, 06:10:53 PM »
http://avensonaudio.com/sto2/

Best I've heard or owned.

And ~$550 a pair they don't break the bank!

I should pull out my Schoeps MK2s>RBox recordings from Rockygrass 2006.  (Yes, MK2s not MK2)  The omnis were split about 25' and I feel confident that Davery and I walked away from the festival that year with some of the best sounding ambient recordings.

Please keep the suggestions coming!
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2015, 07:00:45 PM »
Richard Skaggs has pulled a lot of nice mk2s recordings at telluride bluegrass for several years, check etree.
Mk4v/41v>Nbob kcy x2>nbox platinum/baby nbox/Naiant PFA/Naiant IPA>Oade warm mod Marantz 661 x2/Sony pcm m10x3

Offline johnw

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2015, 07:25:56 PM »
I'd get the ccm5s. I like the hf bump and if you needed to run omnis last minute due to wind, you're set.
Schoeps MK41 & MK4V  |  Schoeps CMC6, Schoeps KCY, AKI/2C, PFA, Nbox Cable/PFA  |  Grace V2, Nbox Platinum  |  SD744T, SD MixPre 6, Sony PCM M10

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Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2015, 08:10:17 PM »
Your Grace V3 is meant for the STO-2's...that would be a awesome goto rig for outdoors (I run a V2 with my STO-2's)...also real sweet on stage source when not outdoors.
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Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2015, 12:38:51 PM »
There are a lot of great sounding omni microphones available so the field is pretty open for you. 

On the mini/micro front, I'd second Gutbucket's DPA 4061 recommendation, and add the Countryman B3 as well.  I've made recordings with both that surpass what I was expecting. 

The Earthworks TC series sound really nice, too, and matched pairs can be had.  The caveat with them is that they draw quite a bit of power (close to 10mA, IIRC). 

Good luck with your hunt! 

Offline bryonsos

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2015, 03:25:07 PM »
X2 Best omni out there for what we do. I'll also vouch for the B3s.

Your Grace V3 is meant for the STO-2's...that would be a awesome goto rig for outdoors (I run a V2 with my STO-2's)...also real sweet on stage source when not outdoors.
Mics: 3 Zigma Chi HA-FX (COL-251, c, h, o-d, o-f) / Avenson STO-2 / Countryman B3s
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Offline justink

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2015, 02:37:44 AM »
There are a lot of great sounding omni microphones available so the field is pretty open for you. 

On the mini/micro front, I'd second Gutbucket's DPA 4061 recommendation, and add the Countryman B3 as well.  I've made recordings with both that surpass what I was expecting. 

The Earthworks TC series sound really nice, too, and matched pairs can be had.  The caveat with them is that they draw quite a bit of power (close to 10mA, IIRC). 

Good luck with your hunt!

boom.  got my TC25's here in the YS brand new for $600/pair if i recall.  freaking LOVE them!  although they don't get nearly as much use as they should.  i need to change that.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2015, 11:00:49 AM »
Having run MK5 in omni mode alongside MK4Vs, I continue to be of the belief that for stereo recording at a distance (such as at a music festival), omnis are an inferior option. Meaning, maybe the CCM5 makes the most sense -- you get the nice HF bump, and you can run omnis in a pinch or in whatever other situations (up very close) they might be preferable. I wouldn't delve into a completely different mic system just to have a CYA option.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2015, 11:23:27 AM »
Speaking of being hosed by wind in the OP...There are advantages in the wind if you run a TRUE omni...not sure if the variable pattern MK5 would qualify...
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Online audBall

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2015, 11:37:15 AM »
^ The MK5/CCM5 is a single diaphragm microphone and operates as a "true pressure transducer" in the omni setting. The capsule setting differences are purely mechanical, unlike the dual diaphragm mics out there.

Offline carlbeck

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2015, 05:54:31 PM »
^ I was wondering this as well but since they are a mechanical omni vs a dual diaphragm it would make sense that you get the benefits of a true omni. I'll also echo what Acidjack said, to purchase a new mic just for a CYA especially at the cost of an MK5 seems like a expensive purchase just in case. Although I personally have become a fan of the MK5 for its HF lift in cardiod it still seems like quite the expense for a back up in select situation's, maybe a set of Line Audio OM1's is worth the experiment for you? I've heard nothing but praise for them & the price can't be beat.

All this omni talk has me wanting to experiment with mine, I have a set for my Telefunken's but have never used them since I don't tape outdoors, maybe it's time to try them onstage finally.
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
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Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2015, 08:21:25 PM »
Thanks for the clarification on the variable pattern Schweppes cap....

FTR...I'll put my STO-2's up against any Omni out there...
https://archive.org/download/dtb2023-10-10.ShakoriHills_AvensonSTO2/dtb20131010_ShakoriHills_07.mp3


Spaced 12ft with Gefell Card Center for sweetness...
https://archive.org/download/tauk2014-06-27.Avenson_Gefell/tauk20140628_BigWhat_13.mp3
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Offline easy jim

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2015, 09:43:10 PM »
Also, don't under-estimate the vintage AKG omni capsules (ck2/ck22) with either the 451/452 mic bodies or the 460 bodies with the adapter rings.  Excellent sound: price point ratio IMO.

Here's a few ck22 samples, both indoor and outdoor, in different configs.:

https://archive.org/details/banyan2007-09-01.akg452ck22.flac24
https://archive.org/details/nms2007-07-12.akg452ck22.flac24
https://archive.org/details/kdtu2009-10-17.akg452ck22.flac24
https://archive.org/details/cornmeal2010-07-02.akg460ck22.flac24
Mics:   AKG c452eb(x2)/c460b(x2)/c568eb(x2); a60m(x2)/a51(x2)/vr-1(x2); ck1(4),ck22(x3, x1 needs repair?),ck3 (x2, x1 needs repair?)
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Offline rigpimp

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2015, 01:53:38 PM »
Man, I love this forum.   8)
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
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Offline ScottT

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2016, 01:05:48 PM »
!!!BUMP!!!

I have wanted a lightweight second rig for festivals and, after suffering some wind noise over Memorial Weekend, I think it should be omnis.  I don't have a huge budget but found a few possibilities during my research.  Fortunately I already have a pre-amp (Busman modded UA5), clamps, cables, stand, t-bar, and a recorder so really I just need the mics and mounts.  I would like to get the best sound quality I can afford, but am wanting to keep things small.  I was inspired by ChinaRiderSTL's AT853omnis>MixPre>M10 setup which he loaned to me as a second rig for Bear Creek 2014 (thanks again Chris!).  I was running two rigs (one at each stage) and this one was a breeze to carry around the festival grounds, and yielded mighty fine results.  A couple examples:
Dirk Quinn Band:  https://archive.org/details/dqb2014-11-13.at853.flac16
Umphrey's McGee: https://archive.org/details/um2014-11-14.at853.flac16


  • Church CA-14 omnis + CA9200 would be an extremely lightweight combo and quite affordable (below $300).  The samples I found on Archive sound quite nice too.  Not sure what current wait times are...
  • The Line Audio OM1s keep getting mentioned (they are quite small mics and only cost around $125 each with current currency conversion rates) but the samples I've found are in controlled "classical" situations rather than outdoor festival taping.  Can anyone vouch that they are good from a distance?  Worth the extra weight over the CA-14s (slightly larger mics plus needing the UA-5, batteries, cables, etc.)?
  • DPA4061s are appealing for their quality and size but are outside my budget.
  • I'm not sure if other options such as the Avenson STO-2s would be worth the increased cost (~$650 for a pair is really pushing my budget), plus the added size/weight in the bag.

Any other suggestions?  Anything new in the year since this thread was originally posted?  What did you end up with Keith?
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Offline chinariderstl

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2016, 01:09:29 PM »
In; great thread!  ;D
Mics: Audio-Technica AT853's, Avantone CK-40 (Busman mod), Busman BSC1's, DPA 4022's, DPA 4060's
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Offline barrettphisher

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2016, 01:36:23 PM »
I have been running my Joly Modded Oktavas mk12>Busman 680 onmi on a split bar and have been very pleased with the results.  If you get a non-modded pair on ebay for cheap you can still come in for under 500 to 600.  They constantly surprise me.  Another option.
Barrett
Mics: ADK A51 TL's C12s, at853's (card, hyper, sub, and omni caps), Michael Joly Premium Electronics Modded Oktava mk012s (Card, Hyper and Omni caps), Busman BSC1 Stereo Kit, and Oktava 319.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2016, 03:44:39 PM »
Having run MK5 in omni mode alongside MK4Vs, I continue to be of the belief that for stereo recording at a distance (such as at a music festival), omnis are an inferior option. Meaning, maybe the CCM5 makes the most sense -- you get the nice HF bump, and you can run omnis in a pinch or in whatever other situations (up very close) they might be preferable. I wouldn't delve into a completely different mic system just to have a CYA option.

Wisdom there in the last bit, unless it's a CYA thing for rainy days when it might make more sense to leave the costly and delicate stuff safely packed.

As for the first bit, I've found that when recording outdoors at at festivals, omnis + a cardioid or supercardioid (or two, or three or four) is better than a single pair of either omnis or cards by their lonesome.   :P  However, I fully realize that's a more complicated setup than what many tapers are interested in.

Recordings made at a distance using omnis alone often benefit greatly from a presence-range EQ boost.  Whether or not a high top-end boost is also needed depends somewhat more on the response of the microphone and the PA mix.


There are some mighty fine sounding examples of good omni recordings in this thread!
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Offline hi and lo

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2016, 04:25:24 PM »
For outdoor work, I would recommend MK21s or MK22s (my fav) over the MK4, 4v, or 5s any day of the week.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2016, 04:47:01 PM »
I agree and second that recommendation.  In my way of thinking those are sort of "directional almost omnis" which will provide decreased sensitivity to wind noise (although not as much as a true pressure omni) while retaining useful "almost cardioid like" directionality which works in good acoustics or outdoors.  Omni-ish openness, with cardioid-ish directionality.  If I was restricted to only using two mics outdoors, a subcariod/wide-omni would likely be my go-to if available.
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Offline ScottT

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2016, 10:23:21 AM »
In my way of thinking those are sort of "directional almost omnis" which will provide decreased sensitivity to wind noise (although not as much as a true pressure omni) while retaining useful "almost cardioid like" directionality which works in good acoustics or outdoors. Omni-ish openness, with cardioid-ish directionality.  If I was restricted to only using two mics outdoors, a subcariod/wide-omni would likely be my go-to if available.

I still haven't heard Line Audio's omnis (OM1) in a live outdoor festival setting, but the CM3 (billed as "slightly wide/semi wide cardioid by the manufacturer) recordings sound pretty good.  I just wonder about their sensitivity to wind noise after losing a couple of sets over Memorial Weekend.
Mics: AKG 483, ADK TL, ADK A51S
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Offline chinariderstl

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2016, 11:26:11 AM »
Also, don't under-estimate the vintage AKG omni capsules (ck2/ck22) with either the 451/452 mic bodies or the 460 bodies with the adapter rings.  Excellent sound: price point ratio IMO.

Here's a few ck22 samples, both indoor and outdoor, in different configs.:

https://archive.org/details/banyan2007-09-01.akg452ck22.flac24
https://archive.org/details/nms2007-07-12.akg452ck22.flac24
https://archive.org/details/kdtu2009-10-17.akg452ck22.flac24
https://archive.org/details/cornmeal2010-07-02.akg460ck22.flac24

Wow, I'll say!!  I am listening to that Banyan recording now and it sounds unbelievable!  :)
Mics: Audio-Technica AT853's, Avantone CK-40 (Busman mod), Busman BSC1's, DPA 4022's, DPA 4060's
Pres: Apogee Mini-MP, Core Sound Battery Box
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2016, 11:48:22 AM »
Also, don't under-estimate the vintage AKG omni capsules (ck2/ck22) with either the 451/452 mic bodies or the 460 bodies with the adapter rings.  Excellent sound: price point ratio IMO.

Here's a few ck22 samples, both indoor and outdoor, in different configs.:

https://archive.org/details/banyan2007-09-01.akg452ck22.flac24
https://archive.org/details/nms2007-07-12.akg452ck22.flac24
https://archive.org/details/kdtu2009-10-17.akg452ck22.flac24
https://archive.org/details/cornmeal2010-07-02.akg460ck22.flac24

Wow, I'll say!!  I am listening to that Banyan recording now and it sounds unbelievable!  :)
We've been using the ck22 on 460 pre-amps this year. Only have three shows done and all indoors and all mixed with a center channel(s).
From what I hear, they are excellent. (edit to clarify-what I hear on these 2 recordings tells me the ck22 is an excellent Omni capsule.)
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2016-04-08.MSOmni.flac24
https://archive.org/details/particle2016-04-08.24Bit48khzMSOmni4channelmix
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 06:29:56 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline chinariderstl

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2016, 11:55:03 AM »
We've been using the ck22 on 460 pre-amps this year. Only have three shows done and all indoors and all mixed with a center channel(s).
From what I hear, they are excellent.
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2016-04-08.MSOmni.flac24
https://archive.org/details/particle2016-04-08.24Bit48khzMSOmni4channelmix

Good lord, that Kung Fu recording is amazing!  :o
Mics: Audio-Technica AT853's, Avantone CK-40 (Busman mod), Busman BSC1's, DPA 4022's, DPA 4060's
Pres: Apogee Mini-MP, Core Sound Battery Box
Decks: Sony PCM-M10, Tascam DR-2D, Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
Power: Initial RB-270, Naztech PB15000
LMA: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Chris+Finn%22

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2016, 01:20:37 PM »
We've been using the ck22 on 460 pre-amps this year. Only have three shows done and all indoors and all mixed with a center channel(s).
From what I hear, they are excellent.
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2016-04-08.MSOmni.flac24
https://archive.org/details/particle2016-04-08.24Bit48khzMSOmni4channelmix

Good lord, that Kung Fu recording is amazing!  :o
wow. We appreciate that critique! We like it as well, chattering aside, we are convinced this is the way to go, particularly outdoors, either with the 414's in MS as this one was, or maybe a Ck8, in the middle.
THANKS!
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline kindms

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Re: Omnis for outdoor back ups
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2016, 04:25:22 PM »
We've been using the ck22 on 460 pre-amps this year. Only have three shows done and all indoors and all mixed with a center channel(s).
From what I hear, they are excellent.
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2016-04-08.MSOmni.flac24
https://archive.org/details/particle2016-04-08.24Bit48khzMSOmni4channelmix

Good lord, that Kung Fu recording is amazing!  :o

Thanks. Other than Tim being low in the mix which was true live i think it is a very true representation of the evening. The mix was better for Particle. I am looking forward to the arrival of some a60 clones so we can run the ck8 and ck22s.

For greyfox bluegrass I am really hoping to run Blumlein fig8s x/y with a ck8 in the center and the ck22s split. or I guess we could do that and then add a ck61 facing rearward maybe. hmmm
AKG414 XLS/ST> TCM-Mod Tascam HDP2
Musichall Mambo > VR-2's

 

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