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Author Topic: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions  (Read 4303 times)

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Offline yousef

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2015, 02:09:25 PM »
Some random thoughts...

1) M10/AT853/Church stuff might be regarded as "starter" gear by some but that is primarily due to their price point. I still hold onto a AT-853>Church 9100>M10 set-up and would recommend it to anyone who wasn't getting ready to blow vast amounts of money on a rig.

2) If you are regularly doing board + mics a 4-channel recorder will save you hours of aligning and time-stretching separate recordings but 2 x M10s would give you greater flexibility in placement (you won't always want your mics right by the mixing desk) plus you'll have a smaller recorder for those under-the-radar jobs.

3) "bit bucket"  ::)

4) Don't lose sight of why you're drawn to this hobby: the love of the music. It's easily lost in the midst of all the gear acquisition and quest for the "perfect" recording or rig

5) As noted above, this really is a slippery slope. When I started I bought a clip-on mic and a minidisk and thought I'd never even need a battery box - the route between that and a 24-channel rig with splitters, pre-amps, 100ft of snake and every manner of mic, stand and lead imaginable has been surprisingly short. And enormous fun.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2015, 02:25:48 PM »
Some random thoughts...
3) "bit bucket"  ::)

4) Don't lose sight of why you're drawn to this hobby: the love of the music. It's easily lost in the midst of all the gear acquisition and quest for the "perfect" recording or rig
Yousef: Yeah, but I like that term "bit bucket" as an old skool analog taper (yes, very old) it really isn't "taping" these days- I guess "recorder" would have been accurate without the implied "taper" ageism!  >:D

chipoffools: Yousef is correct, IMO it is important to love music and enjoy the ability to play it back on your own time. I know several soundmen who actually dislike music and rarely listen to anything outside of work. Usually these guys have been doing it for so many years and/or are studio techs. listening to the same track repeatedly for 8-20 hours can make one a bit sour!  :o
music IS love

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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2015, 03:14:14 PM »
As far as the DR60D goes, I've seen good sales on them relatively often at B&H Photo. I don't own one myself but it gives you a four channel option. Almost any AUD + SBD setup will require some time sync between the two sources but it really helps if they are made using the same clock. If you use two devices they may or may not line up correctly then you have to stretch one to sync. 

Another great option for mics are the Line Audio CM3 mics. You have to order them from Belgium or France but they are really good mics for a very decent price. Probably the best bang for the buck on mics right now. They are small too. Not as small as the Church Audio mics though.
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MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
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Offline furburger

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2015, 03:17:34 PM »
positioning: TEN times more important than the mics used.

find the "sweet spot" in the venues you frequent. and save some money on microphones (at least initially, you can always 'branch out' later on)


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people who are fans of the music, they LOVE what I document and capture...people who are fans of themselves....not so much.

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2015, 09:27:54 PM »
You can turn off PIP on the Sony.  It's in the "detail" menu.  Also, if you insert a jack into mic in while it's turned on, you'll get a prompt asking if you want PIP on or off.

Yeah, I use a battery box with CA-14 cards through the mic in (with PIP turned off) a lot of the time. Trial and error has taught me the rule of thumb: If I don't feel like I need earplugs, then it's quiet enough to go mic in. (With these particular mics, obviously. YMMV otherwise.)

And add me to the chorus of yays for recording music because no one else is. Welcome, and I look forward to hearing what you capture.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2015, 08:41:34 AM »
I was pleasantly shocked by the quality of recording from at853s into a m10.  If recording louder material, a battery box is needed, but not expensive. 

The 60d gives you the option of using a broader range of mics with xlr connections and phantom power.  The disadvantage is its the size of a block of butter and you will need an external battery for longer recordings.  The m10 will run for hours on end off a pair of AAs. 

If you want to run a camera feed, the 60d has an adjustable out feed.

The choice between them is largely a question of how you intend to record. 

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2015, 09:26:11 AM »
positioning: TEN times more important than the mics used.

find the "sweet spot" in the venues you frequent.

^This.

The microphone configuration (the way you arrange them - where they point and the spacing between them) is the second most important thing.
The mics themselves are third most important. 
And everything else is pretty much in a far distant fourth place and just needs to work correctly without causing problems.

The term "bit bucket" used to generally mean a digital input recorder which was used with a separate external preamp/Analog-to-Digital-Converter.  The term originally implied that as a device in the recording rig, it did nothing more than "collect the bits".  In this day and age, both the preamps and the ADC built into recorders have improved significantly, and fewer tapers now use an external ADC, even those who continue to use and external mic preamp.  But the meaning of language is fluid and constantly evolves, so the term may now be shifting to refer to all digital recorders, including those using their own internal ADCs and perhaps their own internal preamps. 
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Offline yousef

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2015, 03:13:44 PM »
The microphone configuration (the way you arrange them - where they point and the spacing between them) is the second most important thing.
The mics themselves are third most important. 
And everything else is pretty much in a far distant fourth place and just needs to work correctly without causing problems.

Purely in terms of sonics, yes. But I'd argue that the practicalities of taping have also to be taken into account.

Position is often the thing we have the least control over - in open situations there are usually practical and venue restrictions to work within and when stealthing you're limited by your own height and where your ticket allows you to stand/sit. And configuration is usually a non-starter when stealthing.

Then there's size of recorder, ease of adjusting levels on the fly (or without sight of the unit), accuracy of metering, cable entry points...

You can have the best mics in the prime location in the ideal configuration but it matters not a jot if the recorder has crapped out for one reason or another.
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Offline chipoffools

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2015, 03:41:51 PM »
First of all, thanks for all of the replies! You've all been very helpful... As far as mic positioning/location, I've read up on potential set ups a little, but those seem like issues that I'll have to work out in practice... Unless an incredible deal comes up on a better recorder, I'll probably just go with the M10 as a starter recorder and look for deals on good beginner mics in the Yard Sale/on Ebay.

Offline chinariderstl

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2015, 03:43:32 PM »
My two cents, fwiw:

Grab these and one of Brian's DIN bars:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174880.0

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168213.0

Robb (darktrain) does excellent work, as does Brian (it-goes-to-eleven).

:)
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Offline chipoffools

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2015, 03:57:01 PM »
@chinariderstl: Thanks for the heads up! I'll definitely pick up the AT 853's..

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2015, 04:05:56 PM »
The microphone configuration (the way you arrange them - where they point and the spacing between them) is the second most important thing.
The mics themselves are third most important. 
And everything else is pretty much in a far distant fourth place and just needs to work correctly without causing problems.

Purely in terms of sonics, yes. But I'd argue that the practicalities of taping have also to be taken into account.

Position is often the thing we have the least control over - in open situations there are usually practical and venue restrictions to work within and when stealthing you're limited by your own height and where your ticket allows you to stand/sit. And configuration is usually a non-starter when stealthing.

Then there's size of recorder, ease of adjusting levels on the fly (or without sight of the unit), accuracy of metering, cable entry points...

You can have the best mics in the prime location in the ideal configuration but it matters not a jot if the recorder has crapped out for one reason or another.

All true.  In the real world, practicalities always need to be taken into account.  However, none of those practical issues change the order of importance one whit.  They are simply things which we can or cannot do something about, to various degrees.

A failure anywhere sinks the ship.  Every link of the chain needs to at least work properly without causing problems.  But that doesn't raise the importance of a cable or battery in the overall hierarchy of which things are most important to try and get right in order to obtain the best results in any given situation.


That hierarchical list is all about determining which issues are most important, and indicates where to focus one's efforts for the greatest return.

Juggling practicalities is about how to go about achieving those hierarchical goals, a further refinement determining what is worthwhile to pursue given what is within our control.


As for practicalities and stealth, I see it the opposite way:
Stealth often makes it easier to optimize one's recording location, many times making it possible to record from positions completely unavailable for open recording.  Figuring out how to get the seat you want is a practical issue.  Mic configuration for stealth is very open to different configurations, it just takes imagination combined with well reasoned consideration of the specifics of the particular application.  Many tapers don't really seem to think very creatively in finding improved mic configurations for open recording, so I don't find it particularly surprising that less imagination may be put towards improved stealth configs which are specifically tailored to a particular situations.  Granted, doing a 10' wide A-B split is difficult, at least without a second person.  Different constraints call for different tools.
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Offline chinariderstl

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2015, 04:07:08 PM »
@chinariderstl: Thanks for the heads up! I'll definitely pick up the AT 853's..

This is my favorite AT853 recording. :)

https://archive.org/details/iseehawks2008-04-01.at853.flac
Mics: Audio-Technica AT853's, Avantone CK-40 (Busman mod), Busman BSC1's, DPA 4022's, DPA 4060's
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2015, 04:09:28 PM »
@chinariderstl: Thanks for the heads up! I'll definitely pick up the AT 853's..

Good choice.  Most people come into this thinking about the recorder first, and mics second.  Yet most who have done this for a while end up considering their mics as far more primary and the recorder as a secondary supporting piece of gear, one which usually gets changed out more frequently as time rolls on, once they are pleased with the results they are getting from the mics.
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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: Trying to get into taping, have some general questions
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2015, 04:12:53 PM »
I'll probably just go with the M10 as a starter recorder and look for deals on good beginner mics in the Yard Sale/on Ebay.

Wise choice. Even if you later decide to move to a four channel recorder or different mics, I'd hold onto this starter rig. The M10 is perfect for patching because of its long battery life and small size.
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

 

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