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Author Topic: Best 9v rechargeable setup?  (Read 11364 times)

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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2016, 03:42:05 PM »
I think Gutbucket was specifically referring to the rechargeables branded as 9.6v. I believe Powerex is the only manufacturer of these.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2016, 01:42:08 AM »
charged first.  It's been a while since I tested with standard 9v but I recall it was about 6 hours.

They're NIMH batteries! They JUST need cycled a handful of times, so they get to their maximum capacity ;) After about 5-6 cycles, they'll be putting out 230+mah, trust me ;)

If you want them to charge up to their maximum capacity WITHOUT cycling them a handful of times, if your charger allows, DISCHARGE the 9v batteries@8.4v[Nominal Voltage], but ONLY at .1a/100mah. Then CHARGE them @8.4v/.1a[8.4v/100mah]. I ALMOST GUARANTEE that they will charge up to their max cap of 230mah after discharging/charging them that slowly! That's essentially a "Break IN" charge and does the job damn near everytime. It should ALWAYS be done on NEW/Worn Out batteries ;)

I have been studying batteries since the early 2000's, and I am CONSTANTLY charging/discharging batteries of all kinds[NIMH/Li-Ion most often], and I KNOW my batteries ;) Plus, I JUST spoke with someone very knowledgeable at "Tenergy" Battery Company and he reminded me some of this stuff, since it's been awhile since I researched it :)

This is quoted from someone at Tenergy ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Bean,

It is best to charge both batteries at the nominal voltage.  For the 9V battery, you would set the charger for 8.4V or use the automatic feature for NiMh batteries.  This should give the battery a voltage between 10.5V-11.V. The recommended charge rate and discharge for this battery is 100mAh or .1A, please do not exceed this rate.

The 9.6V battery pack should also be set to 9.6V at a 1A rate.  The rapid rate is 2A but we don't recommend using this rate too often.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And about charging 9v/Li-Ion batteries.............

Dear Bean,

For the Li-ion batteries, they operate at 7.4V.  You should set the TB6B 7.4V (2s) at .1a.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So for ALL 9v Rechargeables, charge them at NO MORE than .1a[100mah], whether they're NIMH or LI-Ion[if your charger allows obviously]!!! It will GREATLY extend their life and they will have a greater capacity as well! :)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 01:44:22 AM by F.O.Bean »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2016, 09:16:14 AM »
This is not totally true.
The 8.4V Li-Polymer rechargeables are usually 600mAh, or even 700mAh, like this one:
http://www.thomasdistributing.com/One-iPOWER-9-Volt-700mAh-Lithium-Polymer-Rechargeable-Battery-_p_2989.html
 

The Ah capacity of NiMH 9.6V's is around 230mAh, or about half that of alkaline 9V batteries which average around 500mAh (granted the voltage is higher).  And the 8.4V NiMH versions have only a slightly higher rating of about 300mAh.

That contrasts with NiMH AAs. These days, the Ah capacity of a NiMH AA is typically equal to or greater than a standard AA alkaline, although the nominal voltage is slightly less less at 1.2V verses 1.5V per cell.
I think Gutbucket was specifically referring to the rechargeables branded as 9.6v. I believe Powerex is the only manufacturer of these.

I was referring to NiMH in comparison with alkaline batteries.  Lithium disposables and Li-Polymer rechargeables are an entirely different ball of wax.

The Powerex/Maha 9.6V behaves as any other NiMH battery essentially. I'd have to check, but I think it has slightly less Ah capacity than "standard 8.4V NiMH 9V types", simply because it uses an extra internal cell in series to raise the voltage by 1.2V (1.2V per each NiMH cell) and to fit within a standard size 9V case each cell must be slightly smaller.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2016, 10:04:29 AM »
However, I am interested in the Li-Polymer rechargeables, and have some questions about them.

They reason is that I have a custom preamp powered by a single 9V battery.  I intended to use Maha 9.6V Imedion LSDs in it, except the ones I have on hand have become long-in-the-tooth and are no longer trustworthy and in need of replacement, so in the interim I've been using standard 9V alkalines.   The problem is that I suspect the preamp may be pushing the transient current supply limits of a standard alkaline 9V during demanding passages, and I don't expect the 9.6V NiMH batteries to be any improvement over alkalines in that regard.

Unfortunately I can find no good measure of the transient current capability for various "9V" battery chemistries.   I assume the combination of a high enough Ahr rating and low enough internal resistance will be the key.  NiMH "9V"s have a lower Ahr capacity than alkaline, which leads me to believe they won't be an improvement, although I have not compared their internal resistance curves, which is probably the most important factor. The alternate "fix" would/will probably involve adding additional reserve power supply capacitance as well as using the most appropriate battery type, and perhaps using two batteries in parallel instead of a single one.

Nominal voltage of Li-polymer rechargeable is 7.4V, which is is too low for correct operation of the preamp.  Are there any Li-polymer "9V" which have a nominal voltage higher than 7.4V, similar to NiMh being available in 9.6V as well as 8.4V versions? 

The short term answer may be to use disposable Lithiums, which are 9V nominal and have high Ahr capacity (need to check the internal resistance curve), but they are costly even though they would last longer, and I'd prefer a rechargeable for the cost/convenience/waste advantages.
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Offline Jamos

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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2016, 02:54:33 AM »
Sorry if I was misunderstanding you, Gutbucket...I was just trying to get accurate info out there.

The Li-Poly 9V batteries operate at about 8.4V.  So they are not a true 9V, just like the 8.4V NiMh batteries, but their discharge curve is virtually flat until they are "empty". I've never seen one that operates at 7.4V.  I think that would be fairly useless for any device that is built to run on standard 9V batteries.

We use them with some older wireless systems fairly often.  The wireless transmitters or receivers will read that the battery level is low as soon as it is inserted (they don't have a switch to re-calibrate their meter), but then that level stays exactly the same for the entire time until the voltage quickly falls off and the wireless units shut down.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2016, 04:40:02 PM »
No worries, same here.

Of the Li-Ion/Li-Polymer rechargeable "9V"s I find in web searches, all that actually indicate the true nominal voltage specification of the battery indicate ~7.2 to 7.4V nominal.  "9V" in the description simply indicates the battery size.  Granted they might measure higher immediately off a charge, but the flat section representing the useful working portion of their discharge curve is going to be somewhere around 7.2-7.4V which is unfortunately too low for correct operation of my preamp. 

Maybe I'm missing finding higher voltage versions, can you direct me to the Lithium rechargeables you are using?

Here are the 4 examples I found online which actually list the nominal voltage of battery (most only mention 9V as the battery size, not the actual voltage)-

http://www.batteryspace.com/Li-Ion-9V-500mAh-4.5Wh-Rechargeable-Battery.aspx

http://www.batterymart.com/p-r-li9720-9volt-lithium-polymer-battery.html?gclid=CjwKEAiAm8nCBRD7xLj-2aWFyz8SJAAQNalaMOoLKXSOk-GuaA1eSXCaELE9ee19LKW4XUUv-PIChBoCPHbw_wcB

http://www.shorepowerinc.com/ipower-9v-700.html

http://www.all-battery.com/9VLi-ionRechargeableBattery-30593.aspx

Everything I've read indicates the individual cell voltage of Li-Po is 3.7V per cell, so that makes sense to me.  Excluding some kind of built in management circuitry which adjusts the output voltage to a value which is not a multiple of 3.6-ishV,  Li-Po batteries should have nominal voltages of around 3.6V, 7.2V, 10.8V, 14.4V.. etc.

10.8V may be the best option if available.  I'm sure it is as a prismatic pack, but I'm looking something in a "9V" configuration format.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2016, 05:00:57 PM »
Found this article at the Battery University website-
BU-205: Types of Lithium-ion - http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

Which confirms that most common Lithium secondary (rechargeable) batteries of various chemistry typically have cell voltages of around 3.6-3.7V. 

Also found this summary table of the attributes of various lithium cell chemistries- http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_216_summary_table_of_lithium_based_batteries
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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2016, 05:53:17 AM »
Gutbucket, you're right about the individual cell voltage of the Li-Poly!

Li-Fe= 3.3v
Li-Ion= 3.6v
Li-Poly= 3.7v

However, even though the Li-Poly have a slightly higher voltage, they are a less stable chemistry, and MUCH more prone to explosions :( They sell specific Li-Poly "explosion bags" that encase the battery while its charging and while in storage/transport because they're so damn unstable. They don't sell Li-Fe/Li-Ion "explosion bags" lol ;)

Li-Fe batteries are less common these days since the Li-Ion/Li-Poly came out, because they have a lower cell voltage!

That said, the "9v" battery SHOULD still power your preamp, even though it has a nominal voltage of 7.2v :) Have you tried it? You might not get as long as a runtime as a Lithium Alkaline 9vbattery, but the 9v Li-Ion should still power it for about half as long! I would at least try it before I would keep sinking $$ into Lithium 9v's :( Finally, ALL of my gear is powered with rechargeable batteries[VMS + 70D's, plus all of my flashlights] ;D
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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2016, 11:36:54 AM »
Thanks Bean.  I'll keep looking into it.

First thing I should probably try is an Imedion 9.6V LSD NiMH, which in the past has worked so well for me with similar preamps.  I've been using alkalines in this one so far, because I need to replace my 9.6Vs which are worn out and no longer taking a charge.

From what I researched before posting above, both NiMH and Lithium both have higher current capabilities than alkaline 9V batteries, which may be the fix for my issue.. assuming it is a real problem at all.  I need to duplicate the condition in which it occurred to confirm it really is a problem, then to confirm that switching to a different battery type avoids the problem.

I was going to try a disposable lithium in it for something I recorded yesterday, but the store was out of them, so I went with standard alkaline again.  The music wasn't overly demanding though, so it wouldn't have been the a very good test anyway, but I could have at least checked the battery voltage over time, and see how much runtime I could get off one.
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Offline phil_er_up

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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2016, 07:53:20 AM »
Happy Holidays!!!

Thanks to all for the info on the batteries. Been following this and the other thread about 9V batteries.
Need some 9V rechargeable batteries.

Gutbucket had a link to 2 rechargeable batteries with a charger in bean thread.
That link no longer works.

Do you have to buy a specific charger for each type of battery?
Not sure which charger to buy? The charger for the specific batteries are not usually linked from the web battery page.

Any help would be appreciated.

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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2016, 09:21:10 AM »
You'll need a charger suited to the nominal voltage of the battery.  Other good features to look for are individual charging circuits for each battery bay rather than one circuit powering multiple bays, and some sort of "smart charging" routine which monitors the battery under charge and shuts off the charger once the battery has reached full charge.

This is the one I use, which can charge both 8.4V and 9.6V NiMH PP3 (9V) batteries- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/Maha-Powerex-MH-C490F-DC-9-Volt-9V-Battery-Charger-4-Channel-Smart-Battery-Charger_p_866.html

This one can also be switched to charge Lithium-Polymers via a hardware switch.  It works for 7.2V, 8.4V and 9.6V PP3 (9V) batteries- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/iPOWER-IP-FC904U-9-Volt--9V-NiMHLithiumNiCD-Battery-Charger_p_276.html

As I was considering trying the Ipower or EBL Lithium-Polymer PP3s, I was going to buy the second one.  However I've decided not to go the Li-Po route and just ordered new Maha 9.6V NiMH batteries last night.  Apparently Maha has discontinued the Imedion brand which had been their Low Self Discharge NiMH line.  Their newest LSD NiMHs are branded as Powerex Precharged- https://www.amazon.com/Powerex-Self-Discharge-Precharged-Rechargeable-MHR9VP/dp/B01FV0U5WG/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1482415851&sr=1-1&keywords=maha+9.6v+precharged
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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2016, 06:30:40 PM »
Your friendly-neighborhood devil's advocate just found 4-packs of Alkaline Walgreens 9v cells for 2/ $10! That's $1.25 per unit.

 :tomato:

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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2017, 04:53:04 AM »
^ Yeah, and when they're dry... where you are... just toss them in the ocean.  What could be worse washing up, these or crap from that little Japanese accident/washout deal a couple years ago?   ;)
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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2017, 05:07:32 PM »
so I just put two fresh off the charger powerex 9.6v in my new femto and it reported 23.2 volts!  I checked with a multimeter and sure enough they are 11.6v on a fresh charge.  The femto specs say "Powering: 2 x 9V batteries (type 6LR61) or external (12-18V)"

So is this a no-no to use these in the femto?  I plan to send them an email and ask but thought I'd ask here.  I've used these a handful of times in the littlebox without issue.
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Re: Best 9v rechargeable setup?
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2017, 05:14:18 PM »
I ran them in my Femto 5 or 6 times and never had a problem.

so I just put two fresh off the charger powerex 9.6v in my new femto and it reported 23.2 volts!  I checked with a multimeter and sure enough they are 11.6v on a fresh charge.  The femto specs say "Powering: 2 x 9V batteries (type 6LR61) or external (12-18V)"

So is this a no-no to use these in the femto?  I plan to send them an email and ask but thought I'd ask here.  I've used these a handful of times in the littlebox without issue.
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