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Offline CorFit Chris

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Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« on: January 08, 2016, 04:03:05 AM »
I currently own a Sony PCM-M10 and a Tascam dr-60D which has 2 phantom powered xlr inputs for channels 1 & 2, and a single PIP 3.5mm input for channels 3 & 4.  I want to be able to run 2 pairs of phantom powered mics, but I also have frequent opportunities for sbd patches as well. This means I can invest in either upgrading my recorder to something like the Tascam dr-680, or I can buy a preamp and just use my M-10 for the sbd patch when available.

I am very interested in your opinions on this dilemma as I'm certain many of you have hit this fork in the road several times in your recording past.  What is the consensus out there on my options?
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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2016, 09:33:20 AM »

Go for the DR680. It has decent sounding built in preamps for your mics and you can record all six channels synced to the same clock making your post work a hell of a lot easier than stretching a separate recorder's file that has been recorded to a different clock.

Since people are switching to the F8 the Tascams are popping up in the Yard Sale for steal prices right now.
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2016, 10:19:05 AM »
Yea...used 680s going for 270 on the low side on eBay.
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Offline hoppedup

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2016, 10:41:02 AM »
I'd go with a DR-680, or Zoom F8 if ya got the scratch.

I haven't used a preamp since I went to big boy mics from CA-14s almost two years ago. I would have made the jump to 8 channels, but I don't mind syncing in post and I like the flexibility of running in multiple locations in a venue or at a festival.

You might actually get a consensus on this one, a taperssection rarity!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2016, 12:20:21 PM »
DR-680

One box, less batteries, no interconnects- simpler, easier, more fool-proof, less to go wrong, sounds great.  And if running a cable from the board to your recording location is a PITA, you can still use the M10 for a SBD patch and sync it up later to whatever you record concurrently on the 680.

More importantly, and however you get there, the unasked question which will potentially have a significant impact on your resulting recordings concerns how you plan to use the additional pair of mics.
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Online acidjack

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2016, 03:25:27 PM »
I would invest in neither a preamp or a DR-680, if you like to actually make recordings. Zoom has a 6-channel deck, I believe (the H6), and I would buy literally anything on the market other than something made by Tascam. The Zoom F8 is excellent, but others here have had success with the H6.
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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2016, 04:32:20 PM »
Why upgrade either???  Invest in mics!

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Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2016, 04:49:59 PM »
(^^^ You would probably appreciate a mic upgrade, but if you need six channels that won't help you)

Some folks have had good results with the DR-680 others have not as you can see from the above posts. It seems like it can do the job and they are not a big $$ investment. I've never used one personally so I can't comment on that.

I can say that you would indeed get six channels but to make use of the 7th and 8th on a 680 you'd need a preamp with a digital output of some kind. I always seem to find uses for the one or two channels my recorder doesn't have...

I tend to run a pair of mics and a board feed but I like the flexibility to try some unusual things at times. I was on the fence for a long time about getting a 680 or maybe an HS-P82 to add more channels. I was on that fence long enough that the Zoom F8 came out and it's exactly what I wanted.

One device, 8 full XLR inputs, four outputs, redundant SD cards if you want to run that way.

It's a very new product so time will tell on longevity but many people are giving it a big thumbs up so far even in the professional audio for video industry which is its target market.

Seriously consider the Zoom F8. Probably more than you were thinking you'd spend but if you have any inclination to experiment with more than 6 channels even down the road it could be a good long term "investment" and avoid chains of devices.

Nothing wrong with doing that especially if it's not a regular occurrence but I knew I wanted the simplicity of an all in one recorder with 8 high quality preamps and some of the features that make it good for working with video.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2016, 05:37:57 PM »
You might actually get a consensus on this one, a taperssection rarity!

Ha! No chance.

The F8 is a certainly a nice machine, but I think it may be a bit hard to justify cost-wise for your needs.  The DR-680 is half the price or less, has sufficient channels to do what you want, is stable and works well for most around here, and has some valuable features which the F8 lacks (which unfortunately make the F8 unsuitable for me).  Sure Tascam makes some duds, and has crappy customer service, which has angered plenty of users here, but that recorder is something of a sweet spot for recording up to 6 channels inexpensively without complication.

BTW, Terry is probably the most right! ..which gets back to that unasked question I mentioned.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 05:41:04 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 07:45:34 PM »
Another vote for the DR680

I've been let down Twice since 12-21-2012 by my DR680...and I suspect it was operator error (had the unit set up to make new track on "Pause" and think that I fat finger bounced the pause button twice and lost the track)

I have used external batteries that are 12v only...run AA's in the unit as backup...

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Offline obaaron

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2016, 08:42:57 PM »
^^
never an issue w/mine either and also have only ever run it at 12v
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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2016, 01:03:16 AM »
I don't know how to grab quotes, so I'll just go at it.  I certainly didn't expect a consensus here (hoppedup).  I'm a relative noob, but have read enough to know there are definite conflicting opinions and experiences regarding tascam vs. the world.

First, I want to thank you all for taking the time to respond.  It truly has helped me better understand my options and question my motives.  As many suggest, I am looking at the dr 680 because of "one box" multi-channel option for the price (expecting to not get a lemon), and my familiarity with tascam.  My dr-60 has been flawless in its operation and durability so I know no negative issues with performance or tech support (knock on wood).  I just got the sony pcm-m10 from the Yard Sale and now have to read another manual and figure out a new user interface.  Would have preferred the dr-2d but none were available at the time. 

Secondly, and to your question Gutbucket, I prefer the depth (to my ears) a second pair of mics adds to the performance.  I also want to experiment with large diaphragms multi-pattern mics (possibly at4050).  May use them as stand alone in the right environment or as split omni on stage if I get the chance, or who knows.  If I upgrade to another pair of small condenser mics I can run a pair in x/y and another in some other configuration.  And if I spend my money on an upgraded set of mics I'm still in the same boat of needing as second set of preamps for the new mics. 

Hell, I guess the most frugal thing to do is just buy an inexpensive dual channel phantom power unit and a great set of mics.  I could then run both pairs of mics into my dr-60 and use the m-10 for sbd feeds.  But man I want a big new recorder (the F8 is too pricey Acidjack).  It seems like the natural evolution of a taper is to start with some small used gear, gradually expand into an unnecessarily large and cluttered quiver of equipment, sell most of it in the Yard Sale or on Ebay,  and gradually mature into a high quality streamlined and lightweight rig.  I think I am just taking my place somewhere in the early part of the middle stage of taper evolution.  One day I may find myself in the enlightened state of Schoeps, SD MixPre-d, and just my M-10, like a wise old man. 
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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2016, 01:08:20 AM »
^^
never an issue w/mine either and also have only ever run it at 12v

I guess the external battery power is another area I need to become familiar with, as I am able to use cheap 20,000 mAh usb battery packs to run my tascam dr-60 with phantom power on.  Some suggest Tekkeon units, and others are talking about Anker battery units.  I'm just not exactly sure how the 9V, 12V stuff works.  Suggestions for threads on that?
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Online acidjack

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2016, 03:34:52 PM »
I don't know how to grab quotes, so I'll just go at it.  I certainly didn't expect a consensus here (hoppedup).  I'm a relative noob, but have read enough to know there are definite conflicting opinions and experiences regarding tascam vs. the world.

First, I want to thank you all for taking the time to respond.  It truly has helped me better understand my options and question my motives.  As many suggest, I am looking at the dr 680 because of "one box" multi-channel option for the price (expecting to not get a lemon), and my familiarity with tascam.  My dr-60 has been flawless in its operation and durability so I know no negative issues with performance or tech support (knock on wood).  I just got the sony pcm-m10 from the Yard Sale and now have to read another manual and figure out a new user interface.  Would have preferred the dr-2d but none were available at the time. 


The DR-60 is not a DR-680. That is one of many issues with Tascam products -- some models work, some don't work at all. For some true comedy on their stuff, look at the DR-70D thread. Based on the experience of people I know whose opinions I trust, the 60D is pretty solid, it seems. If I were you, I'd just give up on the dream of running multiple  sets of mics and be happy doing 2 mics + SBD into that 60D, and spend my money on Isotope Ozone and a good editing program. I have an 8-channel deck and have never even used channels 5-8. OTOH if you really are into the multi pattern LD idea (and I've also done that routine, both with a stereo pair and a single stereo mic), if you get an inexpensive preamp (plus attenuators) you can probably unload it later at not too much of a loss.

I think adding SBD feeds is going to make by far the biggest difference in the quality of your recordings, so I'd try hard to get that.

Basically, if you buy a 680, you'll have the options you want. You're just rolling the dice as to whether the deck will work. I've owned one (and just about every other piece of equipment) and I found it a terrible user experience as well as unreliable. But, if you get one that's not a lemon -- and they do exist -- and you don't mind the horrific metering and menus, then it will do exactly what you want, and you won't have much money in it. If you get a lemon, though, be prepared for a terrible experience dealing with a company that deals in volume and doesn't care about keeping people's business.
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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2016, 08:10:26 PM »

The DR-60 is not a DR-680. That is one of many issues with Tascam products -- some models work, some don't work at all. For some true comedy on their stuff, look at the DR-70D thread.

I've read about the DR-70 with much disappointment as that was one of the decks I wanted based on price and the ability to be powered with USB Power Bank.  So does Zoom have a better Support system than Tascam?  Do we have enough time and experience with the F8 to know its rock solid, and if issued come up that their support can handle it? 


If I were you, I'd just give up on the dream of running multiple  sets of mics and be happy doing 2 mics + SBD into that 60D, and spend my money on Isotope Ozone and a good editing program.


Izotope Ozone looks great, but I'd like to get some sleep at night!

Another vote for the DR680

I've been let down Twice since 12-21-2012 by my DR680...and I suspect it was operator error (had the unit set up to make new track on "Pause" and think that I fat finger bounced the pause button twice and lost the track)

I have used external batteries that are 12v only...run AA's in the unit as backup...


So, with the Tekkeon batteries appearing to be out of service, what are people using now?  Will the six lithium AA's get me through a two-hour show running 4 mics with phantom 48v?  Is the Anker usb battery pack working on the DR-680? 


OTOH if you really are into the multi pattern LD idea (and I've also done that routine, both with a stereo pair and a single stereo mic), if you get an inexpensive preamp (plus attenuators) you can probably unload it later at not too much of a loss.

I think adding SBD feeds is going to make by far the biggest difference in the quality of your recordings, so I'd try hard to get that.


"inexpensive preamp" is a relative term.  I have looked at everything from ART USB-Pre ($) to the SD Mix-Pre D ($$$$).  As for SBD feeds, they are great, but not always available.  I think the biggest problems here is that I listen to the same equipment used by different people at different venues and there seems to be very little consistency.  I predominantly record at smaller venues where few others are recording so it is difficult to hear how equipment compares.  Maybe this is why the Yard Sale is so busy, taping is trial and error and we have to buy to try. 
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Offline yltfan

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2016, 12:19:52 AM »
Another vote for the 680 here. Never had an issue with either of mine (and maybe you can talk me into selling the stock one - the other is a busman mod)


I can say that you would indeed get six channels but to make use of the 7th and 8th on a 680 you'd need a preamp with a digital output of some kind. I always seem to find uses for the one or two channels my recorder doesn't have...


Not  exactly true, if the SBD has a spdif out, you can use that without a preamp.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2016, 09:06:21 AM »
I think the biggest problems here is that I listen to the same equipment used by different people at different venues and there seems to be very little consistency.  I predominantly record at smaller venues where few others are recording so it is difficult to hear how equipment compares.
 
Other than microphones, most equipment sounds pretty similar as long as it is setup properly, operating correctly, isn't overloaded or over-noisy.  The biggest variables between recordings is: the band, the acoustics of the venue, the sound-guy and PA system, the recording location, the recording setup and microphone technique.. all of which are all usually more influential than then the choice of microphones, which are in turn the most influential part of the equipment chain, usually.  The rest of the equipment used has an influence, but is pretty far down that hierarchy.

Quote
taping is trial and error and we have to buy to try
^
This, partly.  Advice from a recording forum can point in appropriate directions and shorten the learning curve. But one needs to actually try various things to really understand them.   Yet you needn't necessarily buy new gear to do so.  Borrow stuff, buy gear which lends itself to multiple applications, buy discounted second hand gear, etc.
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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2016, 02:05:40 PM »
Thanks everyone for chiming in.  Its Done!  Worked great this past weekend as I recorded 6 channels (4 mics, 2 SBD).

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2016, 04:12:35 PM »
I think the biggest problems here is that I listen to the same equipment used by different people at different venues and there seems to be very little consistency.  I predominantly record at smaller venues where few others are recording so it is difficult to hear how equipment compares.
 
Other than microphones, most equipment sounds pretty similar as long as it is setup properly, operating correctly, isn't overloaded or over-noisy.  The biggest variables between recordings is: the band, the acoustics of the venue, the sound-guy and PA system, the recording location, the recording setup and microphone technique.. all of which are all usually more influential than then the choice of microphones, which are in turn the most influential part of the equipment chain, usually.  The rest of the equipment used has an influence, but is pretty far down that hierarchy.

I agree with this, though that "setup properly" is a big one. Go to any festival and observe all the convoluted patterns, highly variable heights, etc. and you'll see why stuff sounds so different. Not to mention that every venue sounds pretty different, and again, people's techniques within them can vary a good bit.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2016, 11:47:10 AM »
I think the biggest problems here is that I listen to the same equipment used by different people at different venues and there seems to be very little consistency.  I predominantly record at smaller venues where few others are recording so it is difficult to hear how equipment compares.
 
Other than microphones, most equipment sounds pretty similar as long as it is setup properly, operating correctly, isn't overloaded or over-noisy.  The biggest variables between recordings is: the band, the acoustics of the venue, the sound-guy and PA system, the recording location, the recording setup and microphone technique.. all of which are all usually more influential than then the choice of microphones, which are in turn the most influential part of the equipment chain, usually.  The rest of the equipment used has an influence, but is pretty far down that hierarchy.

I agree with this, though that "setup properly" is a big one. Go to any festival and observe all the convoluted patterns, highly variable heights, etc. and you'll see why stuff sounds so different. Not to mention that every venue sounds pretty different, and again, people's techniques within them can vary a good bit.

Since I have several experienced tapers on this post, I want to slightly deviate from my OP.  Assuming I typically try to run NOS configuration, how do you alter the configuration when not centered in the venue?  For example right of center significantly more inline with one speaker stack than the other.  To this point I have maintained the NOS and adjusted my gain settings accordingly.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2016, 02:41:38 PM »
Assuming I typically try to run NOS configuration, how do you alter the configuration when not centered in the venue?  For example right of center significantly more inline with one speaker stack than the other.  To this point I have maintained the NOS and adjusted my gain settings accordingly.

The simple and probably best answer is to listen with eyes closed for a while, turning to face directly towards the apparent acoustic center, then turn the microphone array to face the same direction.  Maintain equal levels, don't change the microphone configuration, and completely ignore what your eyes tell you.  Rely only on your ears to orient the microphone setup.  Don't worry if it looks like it's pointing off in the wrong direction.  Don't try to compensate for being off-center by pointing at the opposite side.  Just "center" the sound by listening and turning the stand.

Shoot to make the music as centered as possible, don't worry about the audience sound, which may end up even further off center due to the way you need to turn the stand to center the music.

Afterwards, if you find the sound is slightly weighted to one side or the other, adjust levels to compensate.  But you can only do that by so much without the power distribution becoming overly lopsided between the two channels.  If the playback soundstage is already pretty much acoustically centered due to the angular orientation of the microphone stand, it's much easier to fine-tune things with a slight level adjustment.

For already recorded stuff which sounds way lopsided on playback, recorded with the mic array pointed by eye instead of by ear, first listen to the Left and Right channels solo'd to determine how different they sound in isolation.  If the timbre of the music is obviously different, EQ the channels individually until they sound similar, and so both sound right in isolation.  Then listen to them in stereo, see if adjusting levels helps center things enough, and make any further side to side EQ tweaks needed to balance things.  In some situations, delaying the dominant side slightly (like only a few milliseconds) can help pull the apparent center back towards the physical center.  If you do that, don't mix the original and it's delayed copy together on the delayed side, mute the original and only use the delayed signal part (0% dry / 100% wet).
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 03:18:29 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2016, 03:17:02 PM »
^The not at all simple alternate answer which potentially could help adjust for being off-center has to do with adjusting the microphone configuration in combination with rotating the stand.  It's probably far more trouble than it's worth, would be hard to do precisely in the field, and is not something most tapers would want to try, but is interesting to me technically.  I won't go into it here in too much depth, but it has to do with adjusting the angle of each microphone so they are no longer in a symmetrical arrangement with the center axis of the microphone array.  Essentially, one microphone is moved forwardof the other, and that accomplishes something similar to the delay thing I described previously, "at the microphone array" itself.

That's based on the work of Michael Williams which explores the inter-relationship between pickup pattern, angle, spacing and position of a pair of microphones.  It's how he goes about "linking" multiple microphone pairs together to form multichannel surround recording arrays which are capable of seamless playback imaging between across each microphone/speaker pair sector, without gaps or overlaps.  His papers on Multi-Microphone Array Design (MMAD) explain this in depth, but are more technical than most tapers here will care to get into.

However, his "Stereo Zoom" paper is the more basic introduction to all that, and explains the simpler relationship between "normal, always symmetrical" stereo pairs of microphones.  I highly recommended it to any taper who would like to understand what is really going on with ORTF, DIN, NOS, X/Y, A-B, etc, and how all those conventional mic setups are simply points along a continuum of microphone-pattern-vs-angle-vs-spacing.  Those standard mic setups are easily repeatable and tend to work well in a general sense, and the Stereo Zoom explains partly why that is, some of the differences between them, and how they can be adapted to help compensate for different recording situations.
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2016, 03:42:35 PM »
^The not at all simple alternate answer which potentially could help adjust for being off-center has to do with adjusting the microphone configuration in combination with rotating the stand.  It's probably far more trouble than it's worth, would be hard to do precisely in the field, and is not something most tapers would want to try, but is interesting to me technically.  I won't go into it here in too much depth, but it has to do with adjusting the angle of each microphone so they are no longer in a symmetrical arrangement with the center axis of the microphone array.  Essentially, one microphone is moved forwardof the other, and that accomplishes something similar to the delay thing I described previously, "at the microphone array" itself.

You are a true mad scientist. Remind me not to let you borrow my death ray.

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2016, 04:03:37 PM »
Heh, Yeah better to keep that thing holstered.
I'd rather bury the death ray and just point my love gun at the soul of it.. by ear of course.
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Online acidjack

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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2016, 07:09:04 PM »
I think the biggest problems here is that I listen to the same equipment used by different people at different venues and there seems to be very little consistency.  I predominantly record at smaller venues where few others are recording so it is difficult to hear how equipment compares.
 
Other than microphones, most equipment sounds pretty similar as long as it is setup properly, operating correctly, isn't overloaded or over-noisy.  The biggest variables between recordings is: the band, the acoustics of the venue, the sound-guy and PA system, the recording location, the recording setup and microphone technique.. all of which are all usually more influential than then the choice of microphones, which are in turn the most influential part of the equipment chain, usually.  The rest of the equipment used has an influence, but is pretty far down that hierarchy.

I agree with this, though that "setup properly" is a big one. Go to any festival and observe all the convoluted patterns, highly variable heights, etc. and you'll see why stuff sounds so different. Not to mention that every venue sounds pretty different, and again, people's techniques within them can vary a good bit.

Since I have several experienced tapers on this post, I want to slightly deviate from my OP.  Assuming I typically try to run NOS configuration, how do you alter the configuration when not centered in the venue?  For example right of center significantly more inline with one speaker stack than the other.  To this point I have maintained the NOS and adjusted my gain settings accordingly.

I also see no reason to run NOS really ever, but definitely not from the floor of a venue. Gutbucket's point at stacks chart is your friend if you want a technically correct way of pointing at stacks. (As to your exact question, I think he covered it, to say the least).
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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2016, 07:50:11 AM »
Different strokes for different folks...NOS outdoors in the sweetspot at a festival is heaven...in a good sounding venue at the sweetspot NOS has a slightly different sound than DIN...bryonsos and I've ran DIN an NOS on the same stand many, many times...NOS is more Open?

When not in the sweetspot...I find Point at Stacks with at least 12" of space with Cardioids an less with Hypers to give you more direct sound from the stack and less room reverberation...while still giving you a stereo Image.

The thing that kills me is the Kwon Bar aficionados...they slap a DIN or DINa bar on the stand and call it good...no matter where they are in the venue...that an the guy that ran ORTF MK4-CMC6>VMS in the section at Greensboro Coliseum...
 ;D

In all fairness...with a Cardioid it's almost more about what you point it away from than what you point it at...it's just a cone shape that is attenuated directly behind the cap.
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Re: Invest in new recorder or preamp?
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2016, 05:34:08 PM »
Different strokes for different folks...NOS outdoors in the sweetspot at a festival is heaven...in a good sounding venue at the sweetspot NOS has a slightly different sound than DIN...bryonsos and I've ran DIN an NOS on the same stand many, many times...NOS is more Open?

When not in the sweetspot...I find Point at Stacks with at least 12" of space with Cardioids an less with Hypers to give you more direct sound from the stack and less room reverberation...while still giving you a stereo Image.

The thing that kills me is the Kwon Bar aficionados...they slap a DIN or DINa bar on the stand and call it good...no matter where they are in the venue...that an the guy that ran ORTF MK4-CMC6>VMS in the section at Greensboro Coliseum...
 ;D

In all fairness...with a Cardioid it's almost more about what you point it away from than what you point it at...it's just a cone shape that is attenuated directly behind the cap.

For sure. My beef is always more with the idea that these exact patterns are some kind of secret sauce. If you told me "mics with wider spacing sounded more open than mics with narrower spacing and the same angle" I would say I definitely agree with that (and to some degree, I think that's what you're saying). That said, I'm less sure that exactly 90 degrees is really the answer almost no matter the setting. Totally agree re: kwon bars; they're kind of lazy. I guess I also feel like exact patterns are kind of lazy, though they're at least a useful guide...

ORTF in a tapers' section? Ugh. But I'm sure x number of people can point me to a recording they made that sounds great with it... Also hard to judge if you're not A-Bing the same thing....
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