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Author Topic: Stand advice for steep lawn  (Read 2967 times)

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Offline Soling

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Stand advice for steep lawn
« on: June 27, 2016, 12:00:04 PM »
Howdy TS brain trust.  Anyone have a lead on a stand with an adjustable leg?  Friend wants to Tape Dead and Co from the Lawn at Alpine Valley.  In recent years that have graded that lawn to an unbelievable steep angle. Friends heavy full body mics and T bar will likely tip a standard stand over.  Anyone advice?  Thanks!

~s
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2016, 12:32:17 PM »
Depending on the turf and how sturdy your stand legs are - I've had some success pushing the back leg into the turf a few inches to bring the stand closer to vertical.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2016, 12:39:25 PM »
Depending on the turf and how sturdy your stand legs are - I've had some success pushing the back leg into the turf a few inches to bring the stand closer to vertical.
Ditto plus I used 3 tent stakes to secure the heavy stand plus heavy mic's at SPAC.
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Offline vegeta_ban

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2016, 12:53:06 PM »
I tend to use tent stakes or sand bags on steep hills with success. Good luck.
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Offline morst

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2016, 01:45:18 PM »
I was gonna say tent stakes, but sandbags will be more likely to be allowed into the venue. How about both if you can do it?

Or just get a round-based stand, and don't bring the base. Stab the stand right into the lawn??!?
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Offline tim in jersey

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2016, 04:25:48 PM »
There are stands available which have one adjustable length leg such as the one linked above, intended for exactly this application.

Other options are to point two of the legs down the grade and jam the single up-grade one into the ground as 'Rewind and 'Suitcase mentioned.. or alternately orient the stand the otherway, with two legs facing up-grade, then place something substantial under the down-grade facing third leg which is high enough to raise it sufficiently so that the stand is level.  That avoids needing to poke into the ground, but requires a steady enough down-grade "shim" of the appropriate height.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 04:28:24 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline jeenash

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2016, 08:27:11 PM »
I was gonna say tent stakes, but sandbags will be more likely to be allowed into the venue. How about both if you can do it?

Or just get a round-based stand, and don't bring the base. Stab the stand right into the lawn??!?
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Offline Soling

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2016, 01:33:47 PM »
Thanks for your input folks, very helpful. Tim, nice looking stand but my wife would give me a knuckle sandwich if I got that one for a one gig use  :D  I think we're going with sand bags and stakes.   Getting Pavilion seats would be easier but friend wants to rock it the way we did as kids years ago.  Looking forward to it!

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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2016, 01:44:21 PM »
Thanks for your input folks, very helpful. Tim, nice looking stand but my wife would give me a knuckle sandwich if I got that one for a one gig use  :D  I think we're going with sand bags and stakes.   Getting Pavilion seats would be easier but friend wants to rock it the way we did as kids years ago.  Looking forward to it!

~s
We rocked it hard on the lawn at SPAC. Huge crew was there. ENJOY!
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Offline hi and lo

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2016, 03:45:30 PM »
Mountain jam veteran here, start digging with a stake and try to get a nice hole on the uphill side. We thought about sandbags this year, definitely a good option if you don't mind lugging it up the hill.

Offline DigiGal

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2016, 04:26:53 PM »
IMHO stands are more stable with one leg forward on an incline. It would be easy and inexpensive enough to rig your own leveling leg. A couple of hose clamps and a length of pipe or crutch leg etc. added to the forward leg. Tent stakes are always a good idea but some venues have hard pan clay which can make driving them though even with a mallet. There are corkscrew type stakes probably best when used with bungee cords. Never had a problem getting tent stakes in though one time security had never seen anyone do that before questioned them but they were fine once explaining the safety use in securing the stand. Suitable sandbags lugged into a venue might not be so fun.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 04:30:47 PM by DigiGal »
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Offline Perry

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2016, 04:47:04 PM »
Hose clamp an extension to the front leg-- I love that solution DigiGal, thanks!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2016, 05:20:33 PM »
^ Be sure to use two hose-clamps, push them as far apart as possible along the leg and clamp them tight.  It's going to want to twist somewhat oddly and angle upwards a bit when weight is placed on that leg.  For fashioning your own adjustable "lazy leg", it may work best to find a section of aluminum or steel tubing/pipe which fits loosely over the existing leg, and use a single hose clamp around the leg itself as an adjustable stop for the pipe.  The pipe stays more aligned with the leg since it's slipped over it, and just pushes against the clamp. Loosen and move the clamp up or down the leg to adjust the extension length of the pipe section.  Shouldn't need to remove the hose-clamp, just leave it clamped on the leg when the extension isn't needed.

But, I've never had a problem simply finding something to shove under the down-grade leg (usually in combination with jamming the two back legs into the ground a bit), and since that lifts the leg perpendicular to the slope, it needn't be anywhere near as tall as the length an extension will need be long in order to "extend the line of the leg" until it contacts the slope further down-grade at increasingly acute angles as the grade increases.  Just need to make sure whatever you shove under there is stiff and stable enough and won't crush down too much.
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Offline DigiGal

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2016, 12:04:31 AM »
My suggestion above was quick and dirty Ghetto to show it can be that simple.

Please Stand By for my more elegant DIY solution . . .
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Offline DigiGal

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2016, 12:22:58 AM »
DigiGal's simple yet inexpensive DIY Adjustable Stand Leg


Step 1 - Pop off the protective end cap of stand leg





Step 2 - Obtain alumininum crutch or cane for tip to fit snugly inside stand leg





Step 3 - Remove the crutch or cane tip you can drill holes in your stand leg so it works like the crutch/cane size adjustment or . . .





Step 4 - Pickup a replacement stand clamp that fits your tubes





Step 5 - Slide the stand clamp over the crutch/cane tip





Step 6 - Attach stand clamp with crutch/cane tip to stand leg





Step 7 - Hill test the stand

« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 12:40:39 AM by DigiGal »
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Offline tim in jersey

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2016, 04:53:56 AM »
Great pics, Digigal.

I'm gonna page Smark AKA SilentMark on this. Amongst other things, he's a land surveyor and I'm pretty sure his training tells him to point 2 legs down-hill...

Offline DigiGal

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2016, 09:05:42 AM »
I'm demonstrating the adjustable leg, you still want to use tent stakes or sand bags. Two or even all three legs can be made adjustable with the method I showed above.

In my experience one leg forward on an incline is more stable and it is the stands that put two legs forward that are the ones that I've seen tip over at shows. Try an experiment yourself with your stand legs spread and a set of stairs. Try putting two back legs on a higher step with a single leg forward and check the how tippy the stand is then repeat with one leg on the higher step and two legs forward and check to see how tippy that is. You easily find which is more stable. 

But again you'll still want to use tent stakes or sand bags at a show.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 11:05:00 AM by DigiGal »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2016, 09:33:56 AM »
What a great idea digigal! I am thinking of making one of these as I have several crutches lying around the house. I must admit, for years I've been a one stand leg back, two legs down taper. But when you showed me last week that one leg down is more stable, I instantly realized you are correct. Three shows this weekend on the hill at SPAC, we'll experiment a bit with it.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2016, 12:29:39 PM »
That crutch-leg mod is some sweet DIY workin' DigiGal!

Careful that it doesn't serves double-duty as a wookie tripper.
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Offline DigiGal

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2016, 02:01:46 PM »
That crutch-leg mod is some sweet DIY workin' DigiGal!

Careful that it doesn't serves double-duty as a wookie tripper.

Thanks, ahh the wooks I did actually think of that.  ;)  Being bright aluminum helps with visibility as does the rubber crutch tip as opposed to using a darker colored crutch/cane and replacing the tip with a slim folding chair type tip which are available at the hardware stores.  Being in a group of tapers or a roped off tapers section and blocking the leg would help too. 

True story I found high visibility isn't always good at least when using a glow stick attached to a stand leg because wooks are drawn to glow sticks and they have a tendacy to try and pick them up even when they are attached to a stand leg.  Had one spaced out wook focus in on a glow stick walk right up to the stand and reach out to remove it but he stopped when I grabbed his hand aand told him NO!  :whipped:
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 11:06:04 AM by DigiGal »
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Offline splumer

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2016, 09:49:45 AM »
That is a great idea, Digigal.

Rather than sandbags, I was thinking heavy-duty Ziploc bags that you could fill with water at the venue, instead of lugging heavy sandbags. Of course, when I was at Alpine last year, they had no water in the restrooms.  >:(
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2016, 12:30:11 PM »
If the ground isn't too hard, I've removed the rubber cover from the end of my stand leg and simply jammed the uphill-side leg into the ground far enough to get reasonably level.
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Offline hi and lo

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2016, 01:52:08 AM »
I'm sure it's a YMMV situation, my in my experience it's actually better not to put the single leg on the downhill side. This might seem counter intuitive, but it's rare for a stand to topple straight down the hill because of how people move through the crowd. The biggest risk is always someone mistaking it for a hand rail (sigh) and they are almost always walking at least somewhat horizontally. When a single leg is facing downhill, you give sacrifice a much needed left/right stability. Knock on wood, but I have never seen someone bulldoze straight downhill through the section.

Also, then you only have to dig a hole for one leg.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2016, 10:39:40 AM »


-or-









-vs-



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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2016, 10:45:27 AM »
The old-skool big bag taper, hauling SLAs, LD-tube-mics, tube mic power supplies, outboard pres and ADCs!

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2016, 10:48:35 AM »
Which way would Elvis orient his stand?
Note the CB radio antenna instead of mic-stand up front, and of course the taper along for the ride in back.

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Offline DigiGal

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2016, 11:26:11 AM »
I'm sure it's a YMMV situation, my in my experience it's actually better not to put the single leg on the downhill side. This might seem counter intuitive, but it's rare for a stand to topple straight down the hill because of how people move through the crowd. The biggest risk is always someone mistaking it for a hand rail (sigh) and they are almost always walking at least somewhat horizontally. When a single leg is facing downhill, you give sacrifice a much needed left/right stability. Knock on wood, but I have never seen someone bulldoze straight downhill through the section.

Also, then you only have to dig a hole for one leg.

I beg to differ, I've seen stands with two legs forward tumble on their own with the stand at height loaded with mics they are especially tippy. All it takes with two legs forward is a slight tap or bump and has no direct relation with people going up or down a hill.

As mentioned earlier try an experiment for yourself using your stand on a set of stairs. Please don't be ignorant, as with balcony clamping safety has to be priority one. An unstable or tippy stand is not safe for the people around it.


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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2016, 01:03:14 PM »
Stands will always topple preferably in a direction between two legs and directly away from the third.

Below is a quick sketch illustrating differences in stability.  View is from above looking down.  The legs of the mic-stands are represented by the black lines. Without being staked or weighted, resistance to toppling is all about the the difference in radius between the heavy red circle and the thin red circle.

One leg forward has greater stability against toppling directly down-hill.  It's all about a longer distance between the green arrows.  But that orientation has less diagonal down-hill stability than two legs forward.  Two legs forward has greater stability against toppling diagonally down-hill, but less stability against toppling directly forward down the hill.

Assumptions: Both mic stands are set so that the vertical risers are plumb.  All down-grade pointing legs are the same length.

If the stand is not vertical but leaning forward slightly, or even if it is vertical but the center of gravity of the weight aloft is forward of the vertical upright, the center of gravity shifts down hill, and the distance between the green arrows grows smaller.  Once the center of gravity shifts outside of the thin red circle, the stand topples on it's own without anyone touching it.
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Offline Moke

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2016, 01:08:09 PM »
Digging a hole for a leg....
Are you then reburying the hole afterward, and re-compacting the soil? To do any less is presenting someone else the chance for a sprained/broken ankle or a nasty fall afterward.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stand advice for steep lawn
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2016, 01:24:00 PM »
Leave no trace.. on the trail or on the lawn.

To tie-in my seeming OT posts with the photos of the cool rides above-
Motorized trike vehicle design moved to using two wheels forward instead of one because of dynamic directional stability concerns, but the basic relationship is the same as illustrated in the drawing in my previous post above.  The difference is that with vehicles the concern is mostly about dynamic stability, rather than static stability.  If static stability were to be that bad, the thing would just fall over while parked.

Dynamic stability has to do with the change in stability as the center of gravity shifts around.  When underway, the greatest center of gravity shift to be most concerned about occurs during strong braking.  When braking the center of gravity shifts forward, and with a single wheel forward design, directional stability suffers.  If the rider needs to swerve while braking hard there is a very high risk of tipping over in a direction away from the turn, which is why offroad 3-wheel ATVs were discontinued years ago and replaced with 4-wheel designs.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 01:25:43 PM by Gutbucket »
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