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Author Topic: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3  (Read 38533 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #180 on: January 15, 2019, 05:14:12 PM »
That's what I suppose in regards to the intended usefulness of Target Level settings lower than 0dbFS (or -1dBFS just to be safe), since it seems to set a lower absolute limit which would otherwise be completely wasted (unaddressable) non-headroom.

I wonder at what level the advanced limiter engages in terms of threshold.  For our use as a safety function when recording, I would be very useful to know at what level the limiting begins to engage so we can shoot to peak at or below that when possible.  I suppose I could run some tests and look for the level at which the momentary yellow "limiting happening" indicator flashes.  But it would be useful to know if limiting actually happened after returning to the recorder, and also to be able to determine where limiting happened when looking at the waveform in an editor by noting where the level rises above the threshold.
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Offline heathen

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #181 on: January 15, 2019, 05:32:59 PM »
But it would be useful to know if limiting actually happened after returning to the recorder, and also to be able to determine where limiting happened when looking at the waveform in an editor by noting where the level rises above the threshold.

This may not be useful (or new) information for you, but when a track clips it leaves a red mark at the far right end of the level meter.  If you were to walk away and your track clipped, you would know it happened by seeing that mark when you came back and checked the recorder.  Note that I'm using the term "clip" pretty loosely here...I think it's just when a meter goes over 0, but it may also be when the meter hits 0.  I haven't dug into the manual to figure it out exactly because I haven't had the need.
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Offline EmRR

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #182 on: January 15, 2019, 06:02:48 PM »
I wonder at what level the advanced limiter engages in terms of threshold.  For our use as a safety function when recording, I would be very useful to know at what level the limiting begins to engage so we can shoot to peak at or below that when possible.

It could be an adaptive circuit like the Aphex compressors used, which change threshold, ratio and speed based on the offending envelope.  That would be pretty advanced thinking though.  The look ahead limiter I use most in software turns up gain in relation to lowering thresholds, and the lookahead itself would be considered the attack time, probably is here too.  Curious what you find.  Can you play with test tones and/or previous raw recordings as input? 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #183 on: January 15, 2019, 06:07:04 PM »
^ Yeah, will need to do that when I find the time.

But it would be useful to know if limiting actually happened after returning to the recorder, and also to be able to determine where limiting happened when looking at the waveform in an editor by noting where the level rises above the threshold.

This may not be useful (or new) information for you, but when a track clips it leaves a red mark at the far right end of the level meter.  If you were to walk away and your track clipped, you would know it happened by seeing that mark when you came back and checked the recorder.  Note that I'm using the term "clip" pretty loosely here...I think it's just when a meter goes over 0, but it may also be when the meter hits 0.

Yes, that's how I knew the first set of last Friday's recording clipped.  However I don't think that indicator will light if Advanced Limiting is turned on because no over is then allowed to happen.

At least I don't think it did after I turned Advanced Limiting on with a 0dBFS Target Level setting for the 3rd set, which I lowered to -6dB for the 4th set (as was unfamiliar with it and thinking in terms of threshold). However, maybe it does light if Target Level is set to 0dbFS.  I'll have to test this.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Cobiwan

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #184 on: January 16, 2019, 02:25:05 AM »
I think I recall Tonedeaf maybe addressed this in his review of the F8 from 2015, but I am probably wrong. I read 4 different threads in a few hours and all the info is mashing up in my mind at the moment.
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Offline EmRR

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #185 on: January 16, 2019, 01:30:51 PM »

^I've  been intending to search for this, as it is a big deal for me. +10dB minimum input trim gain through the XLR mic-inputs is overly hot for some material given the sensitivity of my microphones.  I've assumed that if necessary I could switch to the TRS-inputs to achieve line-level sensitivity while retaining phantom powering.  That would be rather inconvenient in requiring adapters, yet doable.  However, if phantom powering is not possible via the TRS inputs this is a deal killer. 

I'll certainly check this to confirm.  I'll also search for confirmation that the newer F8n will still provide phantom through the XLRs when input sensitivity has been switched to line-level if I switch to that recorder to solve the issue.

[edit- Zoom's F8n vs F8 Comparison Chart PDF seems to indicate that F8n will provide phantom through the XLRs when switched to line-level input.  The chart doesn't indicate phantom is available over the TRS inputs for either model, although it does not specifically indicate that it is not]

It is a fact that even audio engineers tend to want to deny that high output condensers can and will put out more than the +14dBu these inputs specify.  10 dB gain sounds innocuous enough, but it can be a frequent problem.  Mics turn into line level output devices pretty frequently!

I send Zoom some questions about where and when phantom can be accessed and got a response that they would check and get back to me.  Will post a follow up if/when. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
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Offline EmRR

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #186 on: January 16, 2019, 02:32:36 PM »
Zoom says: 

Quote
phantom power is still available when the Input Source is set to Line.

...when asked about the XLR's on the F8n.   Don't have a response yet about the TRS. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline vwmule

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #187 on: January 16, 2019, 02:50:15 PM »
Whenever I run the F8, I use two external Tekkeons. Last night while recording Alejandro Escovedo, I noticed the deck powered down and scrambled to fix the problem. Even if one battery was dead or connection not firm, shouldn't the second have kicked in?

I'm not sure what happened.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #188 on: January 16, 2019, 04:36:16 PM »
You have the two Tekkeons wired in parallel?  If so and both are "on" and supplying power, then the second should carry the weight when the first dies.  I don't use and are not familiar with Tekkeon batteries though, specifically if if and when they might shut off automatically.  Did one of the two still have sufficient charge remaining?  If not are they recharged through the same output port you are using to power the recorder? If so once one dies the other will be trying to both power the recorder and recharge the other battery which could cause it to discharge faster.

Regardless, one solution is to keep AA's in the recorder as backup.  That's good practice for powering redundancy and they wont be drawn from until the external battery shuts down or is disconnected.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline vwmule

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #189 on: January 16, 2019, 05:01:25 PM »
I use one via Hirose and the other through the standard jack in back of unit. One of the batteries was fine as I was able to get the unit running again. So if one was good, why did it shut off?

Offline EmRR

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #190 on: January 16, 2019, 05:40:10 PM »
Quote
When multiple power supplies are connected, they will be used
in the following order of precedence.
1. Dedicated AC adapter (DC IN)
2. External DC power supply (Ext DC)
3. AA batteries in unit (Int AA)

Was it the Ext DC battery that died?  Maybe it doesn't go to DC IN (1) from (2) at all, but only to AA (3)?  Would it matter what order the batteries were connected in?  If (2) was connected when it powered up, and (1) was connected later, would it never see (1)?

How is the shutdown voltage set? 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 05:44:23 PM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #191 on: January 16, 2019, 05:55:44 PM »
Powering priority is:

1- coaxial input
2- Hirose input
3- internal batteries

Coaxial input takes priority if power is present through it.
If coaxial input power fails, recorder switches to Hirose input if present, if not it switches to internal batteries.
If Hirose input power fails, recorder switches to internal batteries.

If using both the coaxial and Hirose inputs, power will be drawn from the Hirose input until the coaxial input fails. < Does the Tekkeon battery shut off if no power-draw is sensed?  If so it's not suitable for use as a secondary back up battery into the Hirose input for that reason.

This is why I prefer external batteries that use a latching on/off switch (battery stays 'on' until switched 'off' regardless of power-draw or not) instead of a momentary on/off switch.  A momentary on/off switch often indicates that the battery features a power-saving mode and will shut itself down if no draw is sensed after an amount of time.

If that is the case, the work around may be running the two in parallel into the same power input.   In that case each battery should then provide half the current drawn by the recorder.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 05:58:06 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Benderman11

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #192 on: January 16, 2019, 09:26:33 PM »
I use one via Hirose and the other through the standard jack in back of unit. One of the batteries was fine as I was able to get the unit running again. So if one was good, why did it shut off?

This is the same powering solution I use and have never had an issue with F8 switching power sources seamlessly.
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Offline vwmule

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #193 on: January 17, 2019, 12:32:52 PM »
> Does the Tekkeon battery shut off if no power-draw is sensed?

Don't believe so.

Maybe just a fluke. I did relocate gear in a pretty difficult room (City Winery in D.C.) so who knows. Think I may investigate other powering options as the Tekkeons are now a couple years old and were likely on shelf for a while when I purchased them.

Offline heathen

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Re: Zoom F8 Recorder Part 3
« Reply #194 on: January 17, 2019, 01:12:11 PM »
Think I may investigate other powering options as the Tekkeons are now a couple years old and were likely on shelf for a while when I purchased them.

The Talentcell that seems to be popular has been awesome for me.  If anything, it's overkill.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pre: CA9200 Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

 

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