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Author Topic: Switch to DIN or ORTF for a situation like this? CA-14 cards  (Read 3460 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Switch to DIN or ORTF for a situation like this? CA-14 cards
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2017, 07:14:13 PM »
Thanks for the follow up and the samples.

It's more boomy than with the cardioids. I like the cardiod recordings better. Cards are more detailed and not boomy. Seem crisper.

Much of that is frequency response differences, primarily due to the dramatic differences of recording location and distance from the stage, but also the inherent low frequency rolloff of cards vs omnis and the different overall frequency responses of the microphones.  The two recordings could be made to sound much closer to each other after EQ, but other things like transient clarity and dynamic punch only comes with being close enough to capture those qualities.

Try the mics up in that catwalk if you can, that could work very well.  Try spacing the omnis and hanging them from their cables to get them as low as the short cables allow.  I doubt anyone will even see them.  You probably can't hang the cards as easily as you need to point them correctly, so just tape or clamp them (safely of course) to the catwalk itself if you don't have a way to extend them downwards without them twisting around.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline SquirrelMurphy

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Re: Switch to DIN or ORTF for a situation like this? CA-14 cards
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2017, 09:30:41 PM »
Try the mics up in that catwalk if you can [...] hanging them from their cables...

You guys are getting me deeper and deeper into it.  :)

But I'm game. How to set the levels though? There's no chance at a test run. You think this'll be better than cards from the front row? At least then I can sit with them and shush the neighbors.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Switch to DIN or ORTF for a situation like this? CA-14 cards
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2017, 09:52:32 AM »
Cards in the front row is simple and easy and may be the best way to go simply on that account.  But if it interests you to figure out what works best, I'd certainly give the catwalk a try.  Hanging spaced omnis over the conductor position is a commonly prefered way to record professionally in a concert hall.  You can do it like the pros do.  Most here will never have a chance to record that way.  Personally, I'd jump at the chance!

Compared to recording from the front row seated position, from a hanging position over the conductor the orchestra will sound brighter and generally clearer overall, the instruments in the back rows less distant and reverberant, and the audience reaction more distant and evenly diffuse.

Use the level settings which worked for you previously from the front row, maybe with a touch more headroom just to be safe.

volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline down2earthlandscaper

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Re: Switch to DIN or ORTF for a situation like this? CA-14 cards
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2017, 05:52:34 PM »
As for trying the omnis, I have two suggestions-

1) Space them 3' apart or so along the front stage lip edge.  Most patrons won't even notice them.  Excellent natural sounding recordings can be made this way and good proximity to the performers will limit overbearing room reverberance even though they are omnidirectional.  I'd still suggest pointing them at the performers, since omnis are slightly directional and you'll get better detail and transients by pointing them directly at the main sources of interest.

2) Space them 3' apart or so back at the soundboard, but tape them directly onto the front face of that wall which faces the stage on which the mics are sitting in the photo you posted above. This is called boundary-mounting and works best if the wall is hard rather than soft.  It's a somewhat unusual technique that in the right situation can seemingly work magic, providing astounding clarity and a dramatic reduction in reverberation.  Boundary mounting works best with the mics as close to the wall surface as possible, so taping your small lightweight omnis directly to that wall can be a good option.  I'd point the omnis directly to either side, facing 180 degrees apart instead of trying to point them directly at the stage.  With boundary mounting, the direction the wall is facing will do most of the "pointing", and that gets the diaphragms closer to the wall surface while providing a small about of directional difference at the highest frequencies.  Ideally the omnis would be mounted so that their capsule surfaces were flush with the wall surface itself, but taping them to the wall works fine as long as they don't vibrate.   This technique makes the omnis behave more like cardioids, they become "hemispherically directional" instead of omnidirectional, and increases the direct-sound to reverberant-sound pickup ratio in a way no other technique can.  It's an odd-ball technique which can be a real problem solver and I think is worth a try in this situation, especially when you need to record from the back of the room instead of from up front.

Gutbucket, would something like this work for the technique you're describing above?   

http://www.ebay.com/itm/282217983257?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Mics: CA-14(cards & omnis) and CA-11(cards & omnis) ; AT853's(cards, hypers, mini shotguns); Busman BSC-1 (cards, hypers, omnis)
Nakamichi CM300's (CP-1,2,3,4) Nakamichi CM700's (cards, omnis)
Tascam PE-120's (cards, omnis) Peluso CEMC-6 (cards and subcards)
DPA 4061's DPA 4022's
Preamps: CA-9100; Naiant Tinybox (12v/48v + PIP 8V); Naiant Littlebox;
DPA MPS6030; Sound Device Mix Pre-D
Decks: Sony PCM M10; Edirol R-4; Zoom H6; Marantz PMD-661; Sound Devices 722

Offline down2earthlandscaper

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Re: Switch to DIN or ORTF for a situation like this? CA-14 cards
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2017, 06:19:12 PM »
Did you ever try hanging the omnis over the band?

Funny you should ask... I planned on posting here after the last recording but hadn't gotten around to it yet.

I showed up for the last show with plans to record off the house mics and had some ideas on how to tweak the gain and mix. Turns out the mixer had died and the TV crew had a cheapie stand-in... but all the outputs were in use. I was unprepared for splitting/patching and time was very short (I had 15 min to set-up)... So I hastily set up my mics and my plan B was to try the omnis based on our discussion here.

I decided to stay in the box and not go setup in the front row (I'll maybe try that next time). There's a little lip where the maple box railing meets the drywall on the front face of the box. The maple railing is where you see my recording setup sitting in my first post. I have a 6"x2" make-shift mic bar I carry with me. I taped that to the bottom of the lip and flush to the wall (see pic below). Mics are clipped to the ends and pointing at the stage -- not 180-degrees as discussed in this thread. I was hoping that the wall would shield the mics from whispered conversations in the box (3 camera people this time) and it worked. I was a little worried about the effect of the slight recess behind the mics but was reticent to completely push the back of the mic against the wall due to the fact that it'd be a little under that maple lip. There's no audience under that wall (it's an entrance to a service/camera room) so audience clapping and whispers is probably OK.

I posted a sample here. Some things I noticed:

- It's more boomy than with the cardioids. I like the cardiod recordings better. Cards are more detailed and not boomy. Seem crisper.
- I used line-in instead of mic-in like I usually do (just screwed up). Levels were much lower... the PCM-M10 is usually at 3 or 4 but I had to do 7 and 8 for this one and they were still too low... stage announcements did not even read on the VU meter. Pre-amp was maxed (+12dB) and I used line-in. I amplified in post (Audacity "Amplify") but it's still pretty low.
- The performance was more dynamic than usual... very quiet "pin-drop" moments and then other times when all the horns are blaring. I was reticent to take the levels higher for fear of clipping.

I don't think I'll record from back there with the omnis again. The Cards just seem much better to me... but you can compare because I posted a sample of each in this thread.

One thing I learned is that there is a catwalk over the audience and close to the stage (not directly over the stage, although I bet there's one there for lights and stage rigging). I'm guessing it's over row 7 or so. I can put mics up there... but I'd have to put my whole rig up there with pre-set levels and let it roll hoping for the best. I can't stay and monitor the recording from there (and I don't want to) or find a remote option (that's what the camera guys do).

Next time I'll try the cards or omnis from the front seat or I'll go back to the house mics to play with them more. I think there's 2 more concerts to go before my kid graduates (although I can still go and record of course).

Thanks for all the help here. You guys are great.

Pic:


Squirrel, I think your omni sample sounds pretty darn good. Do you have the cardioid version that you like better posted? I'd be interested to hear it
Mics: CA-14(cards & omnis) and CA-11(cards & omnis) ; AT853's(cards, hypers, mini shotguns); Busman BSC-1 (cards, hypers, omnis)
Nakamichi CM300's (CP-1,2,3,4) Nakamichi CM700's (cards, omnis)
Tascam PE-120's (cards, omnis) Peluso CEMC-6 (cards and subcards)
DPA 4061's DPA 4022's
Preamps: CA-9100; Naiant Tinybox (12v/48v + PIP 8V); Naiant Littlebox;
DPA MPS6030; Sound Device Mix Pre-D
Decks: Sony PCM M10; Edirol R-4; Zoom H6; Marantz PMD-661; Sound Devices 722

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Switch to DIN or ORTF for a situation like this? CA-14 cards
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2017, 12:46:49 PM »
Gutbucket, would something like this work for the technique you're describing above?   

http://www.ebay.com/itm/282217983257?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Sure, that is a mic specifically designed for boundary-mounted use on the floor.  AT makes and has made a bunch of similar models, maybe more than any other manufacturer- some are directional, some are stereo mics.  Not sure of their response or sound, but they are typically metal, weighty and well constructed with a rubber base (so they wont vibrate, and wont be crushed if stepped upon).  It would also work mounted to a wall, but the heft may make it difficult to keep in place.  Maybe could be hung by the cable, and secured using gaff tape I suppose.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

 

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