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Author Topic: Which rechargeable Lithium-Ion "9V" (AKA PP3 or 6F22 size) battery? and charger?  (Read 311 times)

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Online Gutbucket

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I'm thinking of trying Li-Ion rechargeables in a custom preamp.  The preamp is a custom 4-channel CA-UGLY2 powered by a single PP3/F22/"9V style" battery.  Think of this as two CA-ULGY2s glued together and running off a single battery instead of two separate batteries.  Alkalines work but I suspect they provide insufficient current capacity in some situations, plus I prefer using rechargeables over primary disposables.  I used 9.6V Imedion LSD NiMH for years in my old 2-channel CA-UGLY v1 preamps without problems, and will go back to them for this if the option of a Li-ion rechargeable doesn't pan out as hoped, but I need to replace my old Imedions anyway so I'm looking into Li-Ion alternatives.

Advantages seem to be superior current output capability (my primary point of interest), a very flat discharge curve, superior mAhr capacity, light-weight, etc.
Disadvantage seems to be a lower nominal voltage of only 8.4V or 7.4V.  I can't seem to find a Li-po in this battery size format with a higher nominal voltage.

Who here has used rechargeable Lithium "9V" batteries? Can you comment on their performance and reliability?  Is anyone aware of an available version with a higher than 8.4V nominal specification?  Recommended charger for them? I only really need a one or two-bay charger.


So far, the contenders I've found are:

EBL LN-8161 - http://www.eblmall.com/ebl-600mah-9-volt-liion-rechargeable-9v-batteries-lithiumion-2-pack_p1360.html
(EBL does not indicate nominal voltage, shame on them, yet other resources on the net indicate they are 8.4V nominal)
The batteries seem to get good reviews, but some sources report that the EBL branded charger(s) for them are not reliable.

Ipower - PDF spec sheet- http://www.ipowerus.com/dealer-pdf/9V700mAh%20Li-Polymer%20Battery%20Specifications_160727.pdf
Info at TD- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/One-iPOWER-9-Volt-700mAh-Lithium-Polymer-Rechargeable-Battery-_p_2989.html
(8.4V nominal)


The following have an insufficient nominal voltage of 7.4V, which is simply too low, forcing them out of the running-

Tenergy -http://www.tenergy.com/30593

Powerizer -http://www.batteryspace.com/Li-Ion-9V-500mAh-4.5Wh-Rechargeable-Battery.aspx


« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 07:54:31 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Online Gutbucket

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Confused.. most of these manufacturers are terrible at indicating the nominal voltage of these batteries, the approximate full charge voltage fresh off the charger, and the voltage at the end-of-use-corner of the discharge curve.

I'm starting to think they are all 7.2 nominal, and the 8.4V number is only the measurement of them fully charged prior to use.  Hard to tell. Who knows?

Maybe I should stick with the 9.6V Imedions.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 07:55:17 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline WiFiJeff

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I have been using the EBL batteries in a 4-channel Ugly from Church for about a year.  I think Chris recommended the Li Ion batteries for it.  At any rate, I get about 6 hours with them powering 4 DPA 40xx series mics (4060 and 4081 pairs).  I have not tried the Imedion 9.6V, how long do they give you in a 2-channel Ugly?  I have had some overloading issues at high volume, not sure if this is insufficient voltage for the mics or just overloading the outputs, the 4060s are really hot and I had problems on the +35 setting (into line-in on the DR2-d).  The 4081s are lower sensitivity, and have not given me any issues even going into mic-in on the DR-2d.

Jeff

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Thanks Jeff.  I had you in mind, as you are using the only other 4-channel Ugly I know of to record similar material and you'd mentioned having similar issues.  Glad you found this thread.

With my older V1 pair of 2-channel Uglies, I'd typically run 2 x DPA 4060 through each, recording to either two separate R-09s (early on) or to one DR2d.  I never experienced overload problems using the 9.6V NiMH in those preamps in that way.  I did a few times when using questionable alkalines early on before moving to the 9.6V NiMH batteries.  I recharged the 9.6V Maha/Imdedion NiMh batteries after each use - typically after a run time of ~3hrs or so.  However on occasion I'd run them for ~12hrs without problems at festivals.  I'm not sure what their ultimate runtime was since I never test-ran them all the way down, but I remember estimating it at 20 - 24hrs early on and figuring I'd stay safe by always limiting my use to 12hrs or less.  So given that, a general guess would be to halve those times for the 4-channel version, giving about 6 safe hours and perhaps somewhat more.

I have the same usage pattern for this 4-channel Ugly version, running all 4 DPA 4060s through it.  As mentioned I've only used alkalines in it for the past 15 months that I've had this preamp.  I've only noticed the problem with some really energetic low bass organ notes last winter.  Since then I have not properly bench tested or otherwise tried to replicate the problem outside of normal use, and fortunately I've not had the same problem occur, but I suspect that is simply situational. 

Since you've noted similar issues using the EBL Li-Ions and the same or very similar mic>preamp>recorder combination, I think I'll abandon this Li-Ion idea and replace the Maha 9.6V NiMH batteries instead. Once I do, I'll do a run-time test and try to remember to report back.  I'll also let you know if I experience any overload with higher SPL bass heavy material.

If this does not remedy the problem, I'll consult with Chris.  Perhaps I'll have him modify the preamp or do so myself to use two batteries in parallel or something, and have wanted to relocate the battery tray/clip from the side of the preamp to the end anyway.

volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Online Gutbucket

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I've received two new Powerex 9.6V precharged LSD batteries and ran a base-line runtime test. They have an all-black plastic case. It looks like 10 hours will be my safe max runtime limit in the 4ch CA-UGLY powering 4 miniature DPA mics, at which point the batteries are still producing >~9V as measured under load.  I plan to run the same test with a Duracell alkaline 9V for comparison, which I probably should have done a year ago.  Will report back after I've done that, and again after a few recording runs.. hopefully recording some challenging material with high bass SPL levels.

My copied test notes follow.. Note that the first test was without any microphone bias load (no mics attached to preamp), so the second is more meaningful as it includes mic powering and also includes enough time data points-

Powerex 9.6V precharged LSD battery initial runtime/voltage test powering 4ch_CA-UGLY
Using two newly purchased batteries (dated and marked A & B).

20107-01-04
Battery A charged ~12hrs prior to this test.
Powering 4ch_CA-UGLY  with no mic load attached (will repeat test with mic power load included)
Battery A
Time   Elapsed   Voltage   Note
11:10   -         11.08V   Initial reading prior to test (no load, battery not in preamp)
11:15   0:00      11.03V   Start of test (battery in preamp, preamp on, no mic load)
11:20   0:05      10.93V   
12:20   1:05      10.44V   
15:20   4:05      9.91V   
...overnight...
9:20   22:05      1.5V      Dead

20107-01-05
Battery B charged ~36hrs prior to this test.
Powering 4ch_CA-UGLY, including  4 x DPA4060 mic bias power load
Battery B
Time   Elapsed   Voltage   Note
13:35   -         10.90V   Inital reading prior to test (no load, not in preamp)
13:35   0:00      10.79V   Start of test (battery in preamp, preamp on, with mics)
13:40   0:05      10.67V   
14:50   1:10      10.09V   
17:20   3:45      9.86V   
18:20   4:45      9.87V
21:20   7:45      9.69V
23:20   9:45      9.09V   Safe max runtime  = ~10hrs
24:55   11:15     7.20V
...overnight...
8:00   19:20      1.44V      Dead
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

 

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