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Author Topic: Which rechargeable Lithium-Ion "9V" (AKA PP3 or 6F22 size) battery? and charger?  (Read 786 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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I'm thinking of trying Li-Ion rechargeables in a custom preamp.  The preamp is a custom 4-channel CA-UGLY2 powered by a single PP3/F22/"9V style" battery.  Think of this as two CA-ULGY2s glued together and running off a single battery instead of two separate batteries.  Alkalines work but I suspect they provide insufficient current capacity in some situations, plus I prefer using rechargeables over primary disposables.  I used 9.6V Imedion LSD NiMH for years in my old 2-channel CA-UGLY v1 preamps without problems, and will go back to them for this if the option of a Li-ion rechargeable doesn't pan out as hoped, but I need to replace my old Imedions anyway so I'm looking into Li-Ion alternatives.

Advantages seem to be superior current output capability (my primary point of interest), a very flat discharge curve, superior mAhr capacity, light-weight, etc.
Disadvantage seems to be a lower nominal voltage of only 8.4V or 7.4V.  I can't seem to find a Li-po in this battery size format with a higher nominal voltage.

Who here has used rechargeable Lithium "9V" batteries? Can you comment on their performance and reliability?  Is anyone aware of an available version with a higher than 8.4V nominal specification?  Recommended charger for them? I only really need a one or two-bay charger.


So far, the contenders I've found are:

EBL LN-8161 - http://www.eblmall.com/ebl-600mah-9-volt-liion-rechargeable-9v-batteries-lithiumion-2-pack_p1360.html
(EBL does not indicate nominal voltage, shame on them, yet other resources on the net indicate they are 8.4V nominal)
The batteries seem to get good reviews, but some sources report that the EBL branded charger(s) for them are not reliable.

Ipower - PDF spec sheet- http://www.ipowerus.com/dealer-pdf/9V700mAh%20Li-Polymer%20Battery%20Specifications_160727.pdf
Info at TD- http://www.thomasdistributing.com/One-iPOWER-9-Volt-700mAh-Lithium-Polymer-Rechargeable-Battery-_p_2989.html
(8.4V nominal)


The following have an insufficient nominal voltage of 7.4V, which is simply too low, forcing them out of the running-

Tenergy -http://www.tenergy.com/30593

Powerizer -http://www.batteryspace.com/Li-Ion-9V-500mAh-4.5Wh-Rechargeable-Battery.aspx


« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 07:54:31 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline Gutbucket

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Confused.. most of these manufacturers are terrible at indicating the nominal voltage of these batteries, the approximate full charge voltage fresh off the charger, and the voltage at the end-of-use-corner of the discharge curve.

I'm starting to think they are all 7.2 nominal, and the 8.4V number is only the measurement of them fully charged prior to use.  Hard to tell. Who knows?

Maybe I should stick with the 9.6V Imedions.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 07:55:17 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline WiFiJeff

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I have been using the EBL batteries in a 4-channel Ugly from Church for about a year.  I think Chris recommended the Li Ion batteries for it.  At any rate, I get about 6 hours with them powering 4 DPA 40xx series mics (4060 and 4081 pairs).  I have not tried the Imedion 9.6V, how long do they give you in a 2-channel Ugly?  I have had some overloading issues at high volume, not sure if this is insufficient voltage for the mics or just overloading the outputs, the 4060s are really hot and I had problems on the +35 setting (into line-in on the DR2-d).  The 4081s are lower sensitivity, and have not given me any issues even going into mic-in on the DR-2d.

Jeff

Offline Gutbucket

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Thanks Jeff.  I had you in mind, as you are using the only other 4-channel Ugly I know of to record similar material and you'd mentioned having similar issues.  Glad you found this thread.

With my older V1 pair of 2-channel Uglies, I'd typically run 2 x DPA 4060 through each, recording to either two separate R-09s (early on) or to one DR2d.  I never experienced overload problems using the 9.6V NiMH in those preamps in that way.  I did a few times when using questionable alkalines early on before moving to the 9.6V NiMH batteries.  I recharged the 9.6V Maha/Imdedion NiMh batteries after each use - typically after a run time of ~3hrs or so.  However on occasion I'd run them for ~12hrs without problems at festivals.  I'm not sure what their ultimate runtime was since I never test-ran them all the way down, but I remember estimating it at 20 - 24hrs early on and figuring I'd stay safe by always limiting my use to 12hrs or less.  So given that, a general guess would be to halve those times for the 4-channel version, giving about 6 safe hours and perhaps somewhat more.

I have the same usage pattern for this 4-channel Ugly version, running all 4 DPA 4060s through it.  As mentioned I've only used alkalines in it for the past 15 months that I've had this preamp.  I've only noticed the problem with some really energetic low bass organ notes last winter.  Since then I have not properly bench tested or otherwise tried to replicate the problem outside of normal use, and fortunately I've not had the same problem occur, but I suspect that is simply situational. 

Since you've noted similar issues using the EBL Li-Ions and the same or very similar mic>preamp>recorder combination, I think I'll abandon this Li-Ion idea and replace the Maha 9.6V NiMH batteries instead. Once I do, I'll do a run-time test and try to remember to report back.  I'll also let you know if I experience any overload with higher SPL bass heavy material.

If this does not remedy the problem, I'll consult with Chris.  Perhaps I'll have him modify the preamp or do so myself to use two batteries in parallel or something, and have wanted to relocate the battery tray/clip from the side of the preamp to the end anyway.

volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline Gutbucket

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Oops, deleted this post accidentally when going to edit the post which follows.  Re-posting the initial data here..


Here's the results from the initial run-time test using new Powerex precharged LSD 9.6V batteries.  I charged these upon arrival and ran the first test the following day.  Max run time may improve by a few hours with a few charge cycles.

Powerex 9.6V precharged LSD battery initial runtime/voltage test powering 4ch_CA-UGLY
Using two newly purchased batteries (dated and marked A & B).

2017-01-04
9.6V Powerex battery 'A' charged ~12hrs prior to this test.
Powering 4ch_CA-UGLY  with no mic load attached (will repeat test with mic power load included)
Battery 'A'
Time    Elapsed   Voltage      Note
11:10    -         11.08V      Inital reading prior to test (no load, battery not in preamp)
11:15    0:00      11.03V      Start of test (battery in preamp, preamp on, no mic load)
11:20    0:05      10.93V   
12:20    1:05      10.44V   
15:20    4:05       9.91V   
...overnight...
 9:20   22:05        1.5V      Dead

2017-01-05
9.6V Powerex battery 'B' charged ~36hrs prior to this test.
Powering 4ch_CA-UGLY, including  4 x DPA4060 mic bias power load
Battery 'B'
Time   Elapsed   Voltage      Note
13:35   -         10.90V      Inital reading prior to test (no load, not in preamp)
13:35   0:00      10.79V      Start of test (battery in preamp, preamp on, with mics)
13:40   0:05      10.67V   
14:50   1:10      10.09V   
17:20   3:45      9.86V   
18:20   4:45      9.87V
21:20   7:45      9.69V
23:20   9:45      9.09V       4ch-CA-UGLY/9.6V Powerex safe max runtime estimate = ~10hrs
24:55  11:15      7.20V
...overnight...
8:00   19:20      1.44V       Dead
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 11:40:16 AM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline Gutbucket

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Jeff, I'm following up here mostly for your information, with a bit more data on using the 9.6V Powerex pre-charged battery in the 4-ch CA-UGLY-

I first ran a second run-time test of one of the new Powerex 9.6Vs after recharging it for the second time (results shown below) and simultaneously did a test of a pair of old Immedion LSD AA's powering the DR2d.  I have not used this batch of Immedion AAs' in probably a year and a half, so I ran them through a full recondition routine in the Maha charger (which takes about 3 days).  Almost all of the old NiMH AA had gone bad, failing due to overly high internal resistance.  However, this single pair (which I'd originally paired and numbered 7 & 8 out of the original lot of 12) reconditioned successfully, with a charge rating reported by the charger of around 2100 mAhr.

2017-01-10
9.6V Powerex battery 'A' charged ~1 week prior to this test.
Powering 4ch_CA-UGLY, including  4 x DPA4060 mic bias power load >
DR2d powered by reconditioned Powerex LSD AAs (#7,8) ..also runtime tested below..
New Powerex 9.6V battery A in 4-ch-CA-UGLYL; Very old but freshly referbished Imedion NiMH AA batteries #7&8 in Dr2d

Batt    Time  Elapsed   Voltage    Note
A     10:55     -      10.92V      Inital reading prior to test (no load)
7      "  "             1.45V        "
8      "  "             1.45V        "
A     11:00   0:00     10.08V      Start of test (batteries in preamp & recorder, on)
A     13:30   2:30     10.05V      4GB card full (4ch X 24/48kHz) delete & restart rec..
A     15:30   4:30     10.01V      4GB card full (4ch X 24/48kHz) delete & restart rec..
A     16:30   5:30      9.98V      DR2d/AA max safe max runtime  = ~5hrs
A     17:30   6:30      9.93V      AA's dead, recorder stoped.  Delete & restart rec..
7     "  "              1.19V      discharged voltage, no load
8     "  "              1.20V      discharged voltage, no load
A     19:30   8:30      9.83V     
A     20:30   9:30      9.72V      4ch-CA-UGLY/9.6VPowerex safe max runtime estimate = ~11hrs
A     23:30  12:30      7.54V

« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 11:43:39 AM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline Gutbucket

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I then went out and recorded something as a real-world test about two weeks ago - a national rock act performing at a local music club.  It was not obscenely loud, yet definitely above the ear-plug threshold SPL level for me, and probably typical of the material most members are recording around TS.  Average SPL for this was definitely higher than most of what I record these days, which fit my intent to check for low frequency distortion in the resulting recording. 

For this I set the rotary gain on the 4ch-CA-UGLY to it's lowest position (0dB, fully counter clockwise), whereas I typical have it set to the +30 position for chamber music and other acoustic material, or +15 for larger ensemble classical or small combo amplified jazz material.  However, keep in mind that the actual gain through my preamp is always less than what is nominally indicated by the rotary gain switch setting, due to how I have the individual channel gain-trims set.  The trims are all set to less than max trim positions, partly to balance the level of all four mics in the arrangement I use them, and party to achieve the best match with the input sensitivity of the DR2d.  I've set the trims in such a way as to maximize the useful range of material I can record by simply setting the rotary gain switch appropriately.  That way, I can use this combination of gear to record the loudest music I'm interested in at the 0db setting, as well as as quiet ambient nature recording at the +35 or +40 settings, and all the material I typically record at the available settings in between those extremes.  So in my case the true gain through the preamp when set to 0dB is actually less than unity.  In other words, the preamp when set to the 0dB rotary gain setting is attenuating the signal prior to reaching the DR2d inputs, which is appropriate given the high sensitivity and output of the 4060 and the ~2V max input level capability of the DR2d.

The good news is that listening to the recording I can detect no obvious low frequency distortion.  I've not visually examined the wave forms, but am personally satisfied that the 9.6V Powerex precharged NiMH is the most appropriate battery currently available for this preamp, providing sufficient voltage/current capability to avoid the distortion problem I was having occasionally using a standard alkaline (Duracell) 9V, at run times up to at least ~10hrs before supply voltage drops to less than 9V.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 11:54:06 AM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

 

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