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Author Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)  (Read 26154 times)

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Offline vanark

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #105 on: June 25, 2017, 06:49:29 PM »
I just noticed this deal at bestbuy.com for Tascam approved flash media:
SanDisk - SDSDUP-032G - Ultra 32GB SDHC UHS-I Memory Card
While it shows $9.99 per card on the product page, if you add 3 or more to your cart, the priced reduces to $7.49/card.  You can purchase up to 5 in a single order and get free 2 day shipping.  WIN!
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sandisk-ultra-32gb-sdhc-uhs-i-memory-card-black-silver/5349305.p?skuId=5349305&productCategoryId=

I'm not a 70D user, but that 32GB card is listed as "NG" on the official list. NG = Do not use.

http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_20170419.pdf
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Offline morst

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #106 on: June 25, 2017, 08:23:28 PM »
Dear forum,
(SNIP)
and turn everything else (limiter...) off. . .

I use the limiter. Try not to hammer your record levels over the top, but if you hit a little bit, the limiter smooths it out nicely.

Since the limiter is essentially compression with a really high compression ratio, it has the potential to wreak some havoc.  I prefer to use dual recording mode to create a safety track at -6dB from the main, which is about the half the level.  If I happen to get clipping on the main, I apply some light compression to a small sample of the quieter track.  I then adjust the gain up 6dB and replace the clipped section in the main with the processed section from the safety.  This requires a little more time and some understanding of how to use compression, but you have control over the amount of compression applied, while the limiter can potentially :smash: your recording to hell.   

Using a higher sampling rate can help maintain signal integrity throughout the mastering process.  So if you use any compression or EQ while mastering, you will get higher quality results after applying multiple effects and/or processes.
I've used the dual record feature when I only have two inputs filled but I still run the limiter. It would be a cool firmware upgrade option (HAHAHA!!!  ::)  ) to be able to run the limiter on the first pair of dual record tracks, and forgo the limiter for the lower-level tracks. Dream On, I hear you say.  :zzz:

I've been running with the limiter since I had the option, certainly back to 2008 and not had the limiter spoil a moment of my recordings.  I'm sure it could happen, but the way I run conservative levels, it's not very likely. I just keep it on in case of accidental loud sounds and momentary transient overages. I have not noticed an audible problem, or any artifacts, but without my suggested update, it would be hard to A/B anything other than a test signal.

Also, I think it might be possible that there are cases where higher sample rate can "help maintain signal integrity" but the results seem largely anecdotal. Can you provide specific examples or studies showing that this is the case? It makes some intuitive sense but I'm not sure it's true.
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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #107 on: June 25, 2017, 08:28:55 PM »
Well, I had my first error last sunday.  I was rigged four channels; two as phantom, and 1&2 TRS input; @ 24.96
The day before I ran track at a rehearsal; no issue. The day of concert, as the house announcements were being made, I got a Write Error. I tried again, a couple of times, and got immediate errors.  So, I jumped into the menu, and changed sampling to 24.48, and tried again. This time it stuck, and the recording went off without further issue, with only the boiler plate house announcement being missed. But, that was too close.
I had Erase Formatted (long format) the card prior to use, as I always do. So, it was a cleaned card.
I tried replicating the issue at home, and no go.
The card is a Sandisk 16gb Tascam approved model.
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Offline djphrayz

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #108 on: June 25, 2017, 08:37:25 PM »
I just noticed this deal at bestbuy.com for Tascam approved flash media:
SanDisk - SDSDUP-032G - Ultra 32GB SDHC UHS-I Memory Card
While it shows $9.99 per card on the product page, if you add 3 or more to your cart, the priced reduces to $7.49/card.  You can purchase up to 5 in a single order and get free 2 day shipping.  WIN!
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sandisk-ultra-32gb-sdhc-uhs-i-memory-card-black-silver/5349305.p?skuId=5349305&productCategoryId=

I'm not a 70D user, but that 32GB card is listed as "NG" on the official list. NG = Do not use.

http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_20170419.pdf

Well that's an inconvenient truth!  I'm glad I posted and especially glad you responded!  I can't believe I overlooked that detail, but I guess that explains why they are giving them away!!  :(
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Offline djphrayz

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #109 on: June 25, 2017, 08:52:11 PM »
I just noticed this deal at bestbuy.com for Tascam approved flash media:
SanDisk - SDSDUP-032G - Ultra 32GB SDHC UHS-I Memory Card
While it shows $9.99 per card on the product page, if you add 3 or more to your cart, the priced reduces to $7.49/card.  You can purchase up to 5 in a single order and get free 2 day shipping.  WIN!
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sandisk-ultra-32gb-sdhc-uhs-i-memory-card-black-silver/5349305.p?skuId=5349305&productCategoryId=

I'm not a 70D user, but that 32GB card is listed as "NG" on the official list. NG = Do not use.

http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_20170419.pdf

Well that's an inconvenient truth!  I'm glad I posted and especially glad you responded!  I can't believe I overlooked that detail, but I guess that explains why they are giving them away!!  :(

Has anyone found a good deal on approved media lately?
Mics: AT4031, CA-14 cards and omnis
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Offline dallman

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #110 on: June 26, 2017, 11:36:28 AM »
Well, I had my first error last sunday.  I was rigged four channels; two as phantom, and 1&2 TRS input; @ 24.96
The day before I ran track at a rehearsal; no issue. The day of concert, as the house announcements were being made, I got a Write Error. I tried again, a couple of times, and got immediate errors.  So, I jumped into the menu, and changed sampling to 24.48, and tried again. This time it stuck, and the recording went off without further issue, with only the boiler plate house announcement being missed. But, that was too close.
I had Erase Formatted (long format) the card prior to use, as I always do. So, it was a cleaned card.
I tried replicating the issue at home, and no go.
The card is a Sandisk 16gb Tascam approved model.

I seem to remember something about only using the quick format on the DR70d. It was added during a firmware upgrade? I am sure one of the long time users of the deck can speak with more authority.

I actually just used my DR70d for the first time. I bought it to have as a deck to leave in NYC so when I am in town, I don't have to bring a full rig. I had been most recently  playing with the DR701d, and I like the menus and ganging abilities, and just kept avoiding using the DR70d. I was really surprised at just how nice and detailed the pre's were and while I like the scrolling menu feature better on the DR701d, (similar to the differences between the DR680 and DR680MKII), it was actually a breeze to run and work, just as easy when all was said and done. Here is a sample, and I would say to anyone, take a listen, the detail is excellent! I did no acoustic editing at all on the recording as none was needed.

Here is 1/2:
https://archive.org/details/DSO2017-06-22.MNZooBerlinerCM33Cardioid

I did not get a chance to upload 3/4 to archive yet, but it can be downloaded from etree:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=593848  (Busman BSC1 Omnis

I honestly do not know which version I like more. I now know I can keep that deck ready and able when I am in the city, and it'll absolutely get the job done.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #111 on: June 26, 2017, 12:55:19 PM »
I seem to remember something about only using the quick format on the DR70d. It was added during a firmware upgrade? I am sure one of the long time users of the deck can speak with more authority.

The original firmware only had a the Quick format.  It was the Erase (AKA Full) format that was added in a later firmware, maybe 1.10.

If you really want to make sure your SD card is being formatted thoroughly, use the SD Association Formatter with the Erase OverWrite routine.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #112 on: June 26, 2017, 01:04:09 PM »
Dear forum,
(SNIP)
and turn everything else (limiter...) off. . .

I use the limiter. Try not to hammer your record levels over the top, but if you hit a little bit, the limiter smooths it out nicely.

Since the limiter is essentially compression with a really high compression ratio, it has the potential to wreak some havoc.  I prefer to use dual recording mode to create a safety track at -6dB from the main, which is about the half the level.  If I happen to get clipping on the main, I apply some light compression to a small sample of the quieter track.  I then adjust the gain up 6dB and replace the clipped section in the main with the processed section from the safety.  This requires a little more time and some understanding of how to use compression, but you have control over the amount of compression applied, while the limiter can potentially :smash: your recording to hell.   

Using a higher sampling rate can help maintain signal integrity throughout the mastering process.  So if you use any compression or EQ while mastering, you will get higher quality results after applying multiple effects and/or processes.
I've used the dual record feature when I only have two inputs filled but I still run the limiter. It would be a cool firmware upgrade option (HAHAHA!!!  ::)  ) to be able to run the limiter on the first pair of dual record tracks, and forgo the limiter for the lower-level tracks. Dream On, I hear you say.  :zzz:

I've been running with the limiter since I had the option, certainly back to 2008 and not had the limiter spoil a moment of my recordings.  I'm sure it could happen, but the way I run conservative levels, it's not very likely. I just keep it on in case of accidental loud sounds and momentary transient overages. I have not noticed an audible problem, or any artifacts, but without my suggested update, it would be hard to A/B anything other than a test signal.

Also, I think it might be possible that there are cases where higher sample rate can "help maintain signal integrity" but the results seem largely anecdotal. Can you provide specific examples or studies showing that this is the case? It makes some intuitive sense but I'm not sure it's true.

The reason to avoid using the limiter on the 70D (and other inexpensive digital recorders with digital limiters) is that they add noise to the recording by virtue of how they work.  Now, the question is - is that noise audible, or is it buried in the ambient noise floor of what you're recording?

Not sure about the "maintain signal integrity" for higher sampling rates thing.  There's some audiophile classical labels who record at 192kHz, but it seems like massive overkill.
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Offline dallman

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2017, 01:15:14 PM »
I seem to remember something about only using the quick format on the DR70d. It was added during a firmware upgrade? I am sure one of the long time users of the deck can speak with more authority.

The original firmware only had a the Quick format.  It was the Erase (AKA Full) format that was added in a later firmware, maybe 1.10.

If you really want to make sure your SD card is being formatted thoroughly, use the SD Association Formatter with the Erase OverWrite routine.

I knew you would get this right for me, and I hope the process you mentioned helps Moke,  Thanks!  :coolguy:
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Offline morst

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #114 on: June 26, 2017, 05:08:01 PM »
The reason to avoid using the limiter on the 70D (and other inexpensive digital recorders with digital limiters) is that they add noise to the recording by virtue of how they work.  Now, the question is - is that noise audible, or is it buried in the ambient noise floor of what you're recording?
With what I record it's undoubtedly buried under signal and ambient noise but please tell me more about this. Do limiters add noise when they are not limiting, and if so, why/how? Are better limiters (like studio quality or mastering quality) designed differently, or is it the quality of the electrical components that makes the difference?
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #115 on: June 27, 2017, 08:32:48 AM »
The reason to avoid using the limiter on the 70D (and other inexpensive digital recorders with digital limiters) is that they add noise to the recording by virtue of how they work.  Now, the question is - is that noise audible, or is it buried in the ambient noise floor of what you're recording?
With what I record it's undoubtedly buried under signal and ambient noise but please tell me more about this. Do limiters add noise when they are not limiting, and if so, why/how? Are better limiters (like studio quality or mastering quality) designed differently, or is it the quality of the electrical components that makes the difference?

You have to separate limiters in software that you use for post in a DAW from those in a portable recorder which don't have any of the issues we're talking about.

Limiters in pro field recorders like Sound Devices, Aeta, Zaxcom are Analog limiters.  The limiting happens between the mic preamp and the ADC.  The least expensive recorders I've seen with analog limiters are the new MixPre series.

Cheaper field recorders like the 70D on up to the Zoom F8 have digital limiters.  This is much cheaper to do, but the limiting is happening post-ADC.  This means that there is the potential to clip the ADC from it being fed too hot a level from the mic preamp.

EDIT: Also, if the metering is post-ADC (and therefore post-limiter), you might not know the clipping at the ADC is even happening.  There's no block diagram for the 70D, but I found one for the 680D.  Looking at pages 57 and 58 seems to indicate this is the case for this recorder.  I'd prefer to have the meter tapped at the analog stage right before the ADC, but something tells me this would add cost.

I'll admit my understanding of digital limiters in field recorders is pretty limited  ;)  so someone else will probably explain this better.  But the way I understand it, engaging the limiter in the 70D and similar units drops the gain by a fixed amount, say -12 dB (again, post-ADC), applies the limiting parameters, and then raises the level 12 dB back up.  The issue is that this this then raises the noisefloor by that 12 dB when the gain is added back post-limiter.  This is because you're now amplifying all of the internal noise of the recorder 12 dB, along with your music.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 11:56:47 AM by voltronic »
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Offline morst

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #116 on: June 28, 2017, 12:06:31 AM »
But the way I understand it, engaging the limiter in the 70D and similar units drops the gain by a fixed amount, say -12 dB (again, post-ADC), applies the limiting parameters, and then raises the level 12 dB back up.  The issue is that this this then raises the noisefloor by that 12 dB when the gain is added back post-limiter.  This is because you're now amplifying all of the internal noise of the recorder 12 dB, along with your music.

EEEEEWWWW!!!!!  GROSS!!!! REALLY???

Hold on. 24 bits.. 22 bits... rock & roll.  OK no wonder I never noticed it, but theoretically, that SUCKS!!!!!  :banging head:  ;)  :angry3:  ::)  :angry2:  :hmmm:  :smash:
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Offline Papaphunk

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2017, 05:05:52 PM »
make sure to hit record!  seriously!  one thing I love about this deck is if it's on you can see levels as if it was in record/pause.  one thing I hate about this deck is if it's on you can see levels as if it was in record/pause!
Yes, it's different from other decks that you put into "REC/PAUSE" mode first and then "release" the transport to start recording like you would on a tape deck.  But the easy way to tell is that Red LED on = Recording.
You guys can say that again...I had to do a search to see how the darn thing paused.  :facepalm:
I think I'll be ok with it, enough of the features and functionality are similar to the DR-60D which is my regular recorder.

So how do you pause / stop the recording during a setbreak ?

Where is the stop button mentioned within the main menu options ?

Does it need to be plugged in to power up ?

Going to try my new unit picked uo in the yard sale this weekend. Eventually I would like to run CA-14 in the input for ch 1 and 2, which internal setting would I choose there ?

thx
*******************************************
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Offline heathen

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2017, 06:13:55 PM »
Going to try my new unit picked uo in the yard sale this weekend. Eventually I would like to run CA-14 in the input for ch 1 and 2, which internal setting would I choose there ?

I run CA-14 omni into CA Ugly BB into the input for channels 1/2.  Here are my relevant settings:

Basic menu -

Ch 1 - Record on, Pan left 12, Gain mid, input 1/2 ext_stereo
Ch 2 - same but Pan right 12

Input menu -

Ch 1 - Input gain mic, Limiter off, Lowcut off, Delay ref., Phase off
Ch 2 - same but Delay 0 ms

Mic menu -

MS Mode 1/2 off

I don't claim to be an expert but this seems to be working fine so far.
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Offline Papaphunk

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 8)
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2017, 06:28:04 PM »
thx Heathen.
*******************************************
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CA 9200 PreAmp - CA UBB - Rolls Mic Power II B
Busman MOD Tascam DR-70D - TASCAM DR-100MKII 
*******************************************

Recordings on archive: https://archive.org/details/@papaphunk

 

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