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Author Topic: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?  (Read 2867 times)

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Offline rappard

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Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« on: September 13, 2017, 06:13:52 AM »
My Edirol R-09 looks worse than Steve Bannon ;-) these days, so at some point I'll have to get a new solid-state recorder. Requirements:
* 24/96
* 3.5/6.3 mm microphone input
* Portable
* Also good for vinyl transfers

According to the What.CD (RIP) forums and here (e.g., http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=175117), the M10 was great for making vinyl rips. But I didn't expect Sony to discontinue it. ;-(

After googling I've narrowed it down to one of the following:
* Roland R-05
* Tascam DR-2d
* Tascam DR-05
* Tascam DR-40
* Tascam DR-100mkII(I)

Partial to the R-05, but I'm open for suggestions. I've looked at the Marantz PMD line as well, but I think they're fairly unwieldy and above budget.

Additional question: would a simple 2xRCA => 3.5 mm cable suffice for going amplifier => solid-state recorder? If so, recommendations for brand(s)?

Current equipment:
* Microphone: Marantz EM-8 (6.3 mm jack)
* Turntable: Rega P3-24 + Heed Orbit 1 + Goldring 2100 or Ortofon 2M Blue
* Amplifier: Creek 5350SE + MM SE phono card

Offline acidjack

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 09:27:19 AM »
Do not under any circumstances buy garbage from Tascam. You will be sorry.

I'd recommend the Roland R-26. I've used it for both shows and vinyl transfers, and it's quite nice. Personally for a vinyl transfer I wouldn't want something that only had miniplug inputs, either.

That said, if you think the R-26 is overkill, the Roland R-05 will be a good, solid device that will be familiar to you as an R-09 user.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Offline rappard

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 10:36:09 AM »
Thanks for the reply.

Also considering these, since a store near work is selling these as B-stock at 50% off:
* Marantz PMD-561
* Marantz PMD-661

Offline ilduclo

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2017, 10:56:31 AM »
I'm looking at the r5, too, my d50 sony is getting long on the tooth. I think there's a lot of functionality on the r5 I'd likely not need, editing, reverb functions and all that, but looks to be a pretty decent rig, lots smaller than my sony, too.  I like that it uses AA's instead of proprietary battery pack. Can continue using my rechargeables. 

https://www.roland.com/us/support/by_product/r-05/owners_manuals/

Offline dallman

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 11:30:05 AM »
Do not under any circumstances buy garbage from Tascam. You will be sorry.

I'd recommend the Roland R-26. I've used it for both shows and vinyl transfers, and it's quite nice. Personally for a vinyl transfer I wouldn't want something that only had miniplug inputs, either.

That said, if you think the R-26 is overkill, the Roland R-05 will be a good, solid device that will be familiar to you as an R-09 user.

I'd disagree with the Tascam knock. I have lots of decks and lots of Tascam decks and have never had any issues with any of my Tascam decks.

Your system seems very good for vinyl transfers and most if not all the decks mentioned would work very well with very slight differences in the end sound. So it really will come down to what you like for ease of operation and transfer. Those Marantz decks you mention are excellent. I do not know if the PMD661 is the MKIII, but if it is, the major differences between that and the PMD551 is that the PMD661 has file encryption and slightly different dimensions, so the PMD551 is probably a better choice as it costs less. Once the presets are set, the deck is a breeze to use, but without utilizing the presets, there are a lot of choices to make before recording so I'd say take the time for proper setup, and it is a great choice.

I use the R-05 a great deal, but pretty much for low profile situations because it is small, works great and is easy to use.

I would think that transfer via RCA to 1/4" TRS might be a bit better than the 3.5mm option. You could then go line in with any deck that has combo XLR/TRS inputs. Personally I'd pick up a used Tascam HD-P2  which these days sells for a fraction of it's value used and I would go with that. It just has great control and functionality for setting levels and if you ever switch to digital output, it has the option to work as a digital in (or out for that matter) bit bucket. One possible negative for some would be that it uses CF (compact flash) cards rather than SD cards and they tend to cost more and are slowly being phased out, but if you have an older DSLR camera, then you likely would have some of these laying around. My HD-P2 which I admit does not see much field use these days because of its size, has never rejected a single CF card so I have used to pretty inexpensive brands from eBay and Amazon.

I cannot give you the right answer for a good reason in that again most decks will do a great job with your setup, so look for whatever setup or features you think will fit with your desired uses for the deck and your recording needs.
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Offline rappard

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 11:41:44 AM »
Oddly enough the Marantz PMD-661 (indeed the mkIII) is the cheaper of the two, because it's priced at 50% off (as opposed to the PMD-551's 25%). They look a fair bit heavier than their "competitors", though.

Dumb/n00b question: "1/4" TRS" = standard 6.3 mm headphone jack?

Offline ben_r_

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 11:56:33 AM »
Thanks for the reply.

Also considering these, since a store near work is selling these as B-stock at 50% off:
* Marantz PMD-561
* Marantz PMD-661
! Who's got the PMD-661 half off?!

Offline dallman

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2017, 12:57:42 PM »
Oddly enough the Marantz PMD-661 (indeed the mkIII) is the cheaper of the two, because it's priced at 50% off (as opposed to the PMD-551's 25%). They look a fair bit heavier than their "competitors", though.

Dumb/n00b question: "1/4" TRS" = standard 6.3 mm headphone jack?

There are no bad questions. You are correct. I'll confess I have never seen 1/4 inch it referred to as 6.3mm, which totally makes sense now seeing it, so that is good knowledge.
And since we throw TRS and TRRS around frequently for 3/8 inch(3.5mm)  and 1/4 inch, (6.3mm) here is what that means:
trs and trrs are different.

trs is 3pole (tip ring sleeve) (typically seen as one black band)
trrs is 4pole (tip ring ring sleeve)  (typically seen as two black bands)
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2017, 03:19:46 PM »
I was using a PMD-661 OADE concert mod for analog transfers into 1/8" in.
I've switched to using my Tascam DR-680 as it has the dual XLR/TRS inputs. I use a pre-made (store bought) RCA to 1/4 inch TS into the Dr-680.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 02:02:20 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline jefflester

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2017, 05:58:44 PM »
trs is 3pole (tip ring sleeve) (typically seen as one black band)
trrs is 4pole (tip ring ring sleeve)  (typically seen as two black bands)
TS is 2 conductor (tip sleeve) (one black band separating tip from sleeve) mono signal
TRS is 3 conductor (tip ring sleeve) (two black bands separating tip from ring and ring from sleeve) stereo signal or balanced signal <- typical headphone plug
TRRS is 4 conductor (tip ring ring sleeve) (three black bands) stereo signal including microphone back to source (usually 2.5mm or 3.5mm though), other less common uses (like Denon DTR-80P digital I/O). Rarely used/found in 1/4" plug.

TS:


TRS:


TRRS (3.5mm):
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 06:01:51 PM by jefflester »
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Offline dallman

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2017, 06:45:15 PM »
^^^ +T   :coolguy: Much more clearly explained!
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 12:29:45 PM »
Do not under any circumstances buy garbage from Tascam. You will be sorry.

I'd recommend the Roland R-26. I've used it for both shows and vinyl transfers, and it's quite nice. Personally for a vinyl transfer I wouldn't want something that only had miniplug inputs, either.

That said, if you think the R-26 is overkill, the Roland R-05 will be a good, solid device that will be familiar to you as an R-09 user.

^^^ What he said ^^^

Looks aren't everything, but if the display on the R--09HR is so far gone, there isn't much of a choice.  I am so annoyed that they didn't use a better display that would last longer.  An R-26 is a phenomenal machine that won't let you down.  The R-05 is also great.  As for the small Tascam recorders, I have had issues in the past, but only for field recording.  I grew up on Tascam and TEAC and like the product, so I was disappointed that the build quality on these were so poor.  I am not speaking about the recording quality, only cheapness of the build...like buttons & dials falling off!  In all fairness, I have heard they made improvements, I'm just not willing to take a step backwards when I have better equipment now that I'm happy with.  The M-10 is an awesome machine, and economical if you can find one.  Given what you've said, I'd go with the R-26.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
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Offline gewwang

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 12:48:38 PM »
And I've owned the TASCAM DR-100mkIII for a little over a year and have been very happy with everything about it, including build quality and the resulting recordings.

It provides two channels of 48V phantom, XLR inputs, powered by internal lithium as well as 2 AA rechargables, takes most SD cards, takes digital input from V3, able to pass thru wands, etc.

There's a thread for this recorder that's been going for the time it's been out and I haven't seen any complaints:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=178782.0

Maybe some of the other Tascam products came up short, but this is one of if not their latest and I still use it for situations when I'm unable to use my SD recorders.

Offline nak700s

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 02:08:14 PM »
And I've owned the TASCAM DR-100mkIII for a little over a year and have been very happy with everything about it, including build quality and the resulting recordings.

It provides two channels of 48V phantom, XLR inputs, powered by internal lithium as well as 2 AA rechargables, takes most SD cards, takes digital input from V3, able to pass thru wands, etc.

There's a thread for this recorder that's been going for the time it's been out and I haven't seen any complaints:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=178782.0

Maybe some of the other Tascam products came up short, but this is one of if not their latest and I still use it for situations when I'm unable to use my SD recorders.



As I wrote, "I have heard they made improvements.", and I meant that.  The older ones were falling apart, but it is my understanding that they are better made now, and have been for a couple of years.  I also stated, "I am not speaking about the recording quality, only cheapness of the build.", and I meant that too.  They weren't bad recorders, but they would often fall apart.  I also mentioned, " I have had issues in the past, but only for field recording.", meaning that since the OP is apparently using this at home, and not in the field, it may not be an issue for him.  I personally have no need for another recorder, but because of my personal experience with the small Tascam digitals, I would stick with something I have not had issues with, like Edirol /Roland and Sony.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
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Offline gewwang

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 03:06:10 PM »
Build quality is very subjective. While some people are looking for solid build, others may be looking for something more light/portable.

While I've owned the Edirol R-1, R-09, and R-09HR and 2 of the Sony m10s, the Edirols were made of the flimsiest plastic I've ever felt.

I was a little surprised to see comments that Tascams have let people down on build quality due to my experiences with the Edirols and Tascam. I have no issues at all with the Sonys I own either (well except I always get nervous opening and closing the door to the miniSD card - that is flimsy).

Offline nak700s

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2017, 04:24:59 PM »
Build quality is very subjective. While some people are looking for solid build, others may be looking for something more light/portable.

While I've owned the Edirol R-1, R-09, and R-09HR and 2 of the Sony m10s, the Edirols were made of the flimsiest plastic I've ever felt.

I was a little surprised to see comments that Tascams have let people down on build quality due to my experiences with the Edirols and Tascam. I have no issues at all with the Sonys I own either (well except I always get nervous opening and closing the door to the miniSD card - that is flimsy).

I use the R-09HR and the M-10, and find them both to be well built.  My only complaint is the R-09HR screen, because after a while, it's unreadable (mine is still fine, but it's on its way).  The Sony, being metal, is by far the best in that regard, but the I don't find the Edirol flimsy at all.  In fact, I love the material because it never sets off metal detectors.  The older Tascams were notorious for falling apart.  The knobs/switches/dials would simply come off on their own.  I agree that the M-10 should have used a full size SD card and not a mini.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
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Offline meursault

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2018, 07:33:38 AM »
I hate opening a new topic so I think I could post what I am searching for here.
I would like a m10 alternative without integrated mics and headphone. Just a recorder with line in and mic in.
I have mics and preamp already.
Thank you

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2018, 08:26:48 AM »
Zoom F1?

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2018, 08:48:50 AM »
A bunch of members are still hoping for a replacement to the m10. 

Offline nak700s

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2018, 01:27:54 PM »
^^^ Yup! ^^^
The M-10 is a fantastic machine.  Damn, the batteries will last around 50 hours!  Not that anyone asked, but there have been a comment (or two) suggesting a zoom.  NO, is all I can say to that.  If, on the other hand, you want to spend some money on something for home use, and legal taping situations, I would recommend Sound Devices.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Online heathen

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2018, 02:43:55 PM »
Not that anyone asked, but there have been a comment (or two) suggesting a zoom.  NO, is all I can say to that. 

I'm not interested in starting some big argument here, but I'm curious about your basis for writing off all Zoom products like that.  I know I've been really happy with the F4 and F8, and I'm very interested in getting my hands on an F1.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2018, 04:31:56 PM »
Not that anyone asked, but there have been a comment (or two) suggesting a zoom.  NO, is all I can say to that. 

I'm not interested in starting some big argument here, but I'm curious about your basis for writing off all Zoom products like that.  I know I've been really happy with the F4 and F8, and I'm very interested in getting my hands on an F1.

I agree that this is not the place for a discussion about Zoom products, or anything other than what the OP has asked for.  Briefly, to attempt a quick and comprehensive answer to your question, My experience with Zoom products have been anything but fruitful.  Build quality seems poor, and at least what I have had to use, was not only user-unfriendly, but didn't yield favorable results.  In other words, my experience with them has only been bad.  I am unfamiliar with the F1, and although I have heard a couple good things about the F8, I have heard more people say that they wouldn't touch one than those that like them.  So, some of this is personal experience and some is not.  For ME, I want equipment that I will not only enjoy using, but that I'm happy with the results I get.  I record for myself, as well as various jobs recording live music, and need to be able to count on consistent high quality performance, and would not feel comfortable with Zoom products.   I hope that answers your question, as I do not wish to continue this discussion on this thread.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Online heathen

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2018, 04:53:59 PM »
Right on man...I was just curious. 

As to the original topic, I haven't used any recorder for vinyl transfers, but the R-05 has served me well for taping in a form factor similar to the M10.  It's unfortunate that the R-05, like the M10, is no longer being made.
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Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2018, 05:55:04 PM »
I think the Tascam DR-05 is an underrated recorder.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2018, 06:38:20 PM »
Right on man...I was just curious. 

As to the original topic, I haven't used any recorder for vinyl transfers, but the R-05 has served me well for taping in a form factor similar to the M10.  It's unfortunate that the R-05, like the M10, is no longer being made.

No problem.
I use an R-09HR and love it.  I know a couple people who use an R-05, and are very happy with it.  I have never heard any first hand reviews from anyone about a Roland/Edirol recorder.  Also, I believe they are still available, unlike the M-10, but you may have to search a little.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline earmonger

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2018, 11:28:05 PM »
It looks like the R-05 is vanishing online--Sweetwater, Musicians Friend, B&H, gone. And if you look at the thread on its successor, the R-07, it seems Roland eliminated a line-in for hotter signals.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=184906.45
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 11:30:21 PM by earmonger »

Offline aaronji

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2018, 09:13:50 AM »
I think the Tascam DR-05 is an underrated recorder.

Unfortunately, in contrast to the M10, the DR-05 can't handle a very hot signal (-4 dBV maximum).  I wouldn't want to use it for loud shows with sensitive mics (like my 2006C's) or a pre with fixed/minimum gain (like an nBox).   

Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2018, 11:35:15 AM »
I think the Tascam DR-05 is an underrated recorder.

Unfortunately, in contrast to the M10, the DR-05 can't handle a very hot signal (-4 dBV maximum).  I wouldn't want to use it for loud shows with sensitive mics (like my 2006C's) or a pre with fixed/minimum gain (like an nBox).

I guess my experience has only been with the internal mics. With those, I got an excellent capture at a Jeff Beck concert -- no distortion. And I've also used it for band rehearsals, just sitting it on a table, and again the results were very satisfactory.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2018, 09:26:44 PM »
I think I bought my Tascam DR-05 for something like $49.95 on sale and then I've watched the price creep up to the $99 or thereabouts today except for the occasional $79 sale.  Never a problem.  Battery life better than some other recorders I've used.  Internal mics aren't bad.  Easy menu.  I've never used it to record a loud show so I can't comment there, but my experience with it has also been positive.   

M10 is still my favorite recorder for its terrific battery life, recording quality, etc.     

If I were just doing a bunch of vinyl transfers, I might look at a USB interface like a Focusrite 2i2 or even Behringer's little UCA202 paired with Audacity. 

Offline chadbang

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2018, 03:18:15 PM »
I just posted about it, but the M10 is VERY good for needle dropping and recording analogue signals. I bought one for just that purpose and held my breath during a shoot-out out of the line-in capabilities. I was very please to discover the Sony did wonderfully. An extremely faithful reproduction of the signal. So, you might consider another M10 from the used market?

Offline nak700s

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 alternative for taping and vinyl transfers?
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2018, 12:27:13 PM »
I just posted about it, but the M10 is VERY good for needle dropping and recording analogue signals. I bought one for just that purpose and held my breath during a shoot-out out of the line-in capabilities. I was very please to discover the Sony did wonderfully. An extremely faithful reproduction of the signal. So, you might consider another M10 from the used market?

I'm glad that someone stated the obvious.  If it ain't broken, don't fix it!
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

 

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