Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: EQ Help  (Read 1969 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rigpimp

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1939
  • Gender: Male
  • Jarts don't kill people!
EQ Help
« on: December 11, 2017, 11:30:29 PM »
I allow myself to get extremely frustrated trying to properly EQ live recordings.  I will spend hours and hours even though I know the "Drive it out til it sounds like shit and then back up off it" rule.

Up, down, wide, high, low and never feel like I get it right.

Anyone have some tips on where to start learning EQ'ing patience?  Or what to read & practice?  I know there are resources here and online I just need someone to point me in the right direction. 

For now I am gonna begin here:  https://pae.izotope.com
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2, Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10
Playback: McIntosh MC2105 > McIntosh C39 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider

Offline furburger

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1265
  • Gender: Male
  • UH-LASS-KUH
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2017, 02:38:15 AM »
I allow myself to get extremely frustrated trying to properly EQ live recordings.  I will spend hours and hours even though I know the "Drive it out til it sounds like shit and then back up off it" rule.

Up, down, wide, high, low and never feel like I get it right.

Anyone have some tips on where to start learning EQ'ing patience?  Or what to read & practice?  I know there are resources here and online I just need someone to point me in the right direction. 

For now I am gonna begin here:  https://pae.izotope.com

I have a hardware-based (component, Kenwood) analyzer that is a *great* visual tool.

I would NEVER EQ a show with my ears only....and I've heard many a person make a show sound worse when going that route.

I stay away from computer-screen/software EQ's, as I don't care for the lagtime (even if it's microseconds)

99% of the time, I can EQ a show in less than 2 minutes time....anything more than that is overthinking it.

the analyzer shows the peaks/valleys, then I even them out.

I do call 625hz the 'mud' frequency, as it's above the snare drum (250-400hz), yet below most intelligible vocals. (800hz-1khz)

90% of the time lowering that will reduce the muddy sound in an arena (of course, in conjunction with shaping the lows)

I also make sure not to over-err on the highs, as they can create a brittle, washy sound....usually I set them where it sounds good before application, but then I bump 16khz, 10khz and 6.3khz back a couple clicks, then apply the EQ.

no resources; all self-taught.

that people reach out to me all the time for help makes me think I'm on the right track.


-------------
people who are fans of the music, they LOVE what I document and capture...people who are fans of themselves....not so much.

Offline Sloan Simpson

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3507
  • Gender: Male
    • Southern Shelter
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2017, 10:53:00 AM »
Under the circumstances I'll shoot you a PM.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline wforwumbo

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2017, 03:39:45 PM »
As a studio guy I can definitely weigh in here.

What you have kind of asked here (without really knowing), is the equivalent of me as a young and green taper saying “so I have my phone microphone, how do I get a good live recording with that?” Well, for one thing that’s not the ideal gear to use - not that you can’t do it, it’s just that you’re facing myriad problems right off the get go; also, it’s not really understanding the system - different gear/mics/capsules/stereo configurations/techniques/LOCATION will all yield different results. And then, once I understand all that, I need to learn HOW to use all this gear to create a functional tape, altering my process as I learn and become experienced. Well, EQ is kinda like that - there are MANY different types of EQ, each with its own characteristics and usages; then once you understand all that, you must learn through experience how to effectively manipulate it to get the desired end product.

There is no simple way to learn or even understand EQ. There aren’t hard-set rules. Many producers like to talk about frequency ranges/bands for things like increasing or decreasing “mud”/“air”/“crunch”/etc. Sure there are some ranges where certain sounds or aspects of them like to be, but IMO that’s the wrong way to go about EQing, entirely. In my opinion it’s best to understand how to listen, and then once you’ve isolated what needs adjustment then keep whittling away til the sound after equalization is closer (or at) what you desire. 

Contrary to furburger, I don’t use a spectrogram to guide my EQ usage; I trust my ears instead. But then again, I have spent COUNTLESS hours at mixing desks or with headphones on, tweaking EQs to get the sound I want. It’s really one of those things that comes with experience and practice, but it requires assloads of both to understand - and then fluidly control - how to use an equalizer. That said, I’ll agree with furburger that MANY people don’t know what they’re doing, and can/do make recordings worse by using EQ to detrimental effect.

If you REALLY (and I mean REALLY) are wanting to understand EQ, there are two steps I would take if I were you:

  • Get yourself a copy of FabFilter Pro-Q 2. In addition to LOADS of features that are useful and will be helpful down the line as you learn EQ, it has the particularly nifty feature of being able to isolate any band that you are actively manipulating, and it can solo that band while you sweep its frequency and Q/resonance in real time. This is really useful in training your ear WHAT to listen for, while also making the job of HOW to EQ easier - once you know what you want to adjust.
  • A VERY general rule when using an equalizer is: if you need to boost, do so with a VERY broad resonance, and no more than about 3 dB or so while you are still learning how to use it. If you are cutting, either use equally broad and gradual shifts, or if you need to cut out a problematic frequency, do so with VERY high Q and at extreme gain reduction. The soloing band feature in Pro Q 2 is great for this as you can vcreate a resonant bell filter, set its gain high, solo it, and sweep until you find the trouble frequency. 

If you have further questions about any of this stuff please feel free to ask here or by PM if you prefer that.
2x Schoeps mk21 (matched pair) -> nbob KCY -> Naiant PFA -> Sound Devices Mixpre 6

Offline thatjackelliott

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2017, 03:49:36 PM »
"FabFilter Pro-Q 2 [...] has the particularly nifty feature of being able to isolate any band that you are actively manipulating, and it can solo that band while you sweep its frequency and Q/resonance in real time."

That, right there, sounds like a wonderful ear-training tool. $200, but still . . .

Offline Sloan Simpson

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3507
  • Gender: Male
    • Southern Shelter
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2017, 04:46:22 PM »
Pro Q is totally worth the price IMO. Pro-MB too  ;D
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline kuba e

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • *
  • Posts: 149
  • Gender: Male
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2017, 06:02:53 PM »
I am making only a few recordings a year. This free plug-in may be useful for people like me who are learning slowly gradually.
http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/
You just ctrl+clik on the spectrum to solo the band. Use mouse wheel to change Q.

Thank you to Wforwumbo for nice explanation.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 06:08:03 PM by kuba e »

Offline rigpimp

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1939
  • Gender: Male
  • Jarts don't kill people!
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2017, 12:23:58 AM »
Wow, FabFilter Pro-Q 2 has been sent from heaven.  There will be a little bit of a feature learning curve (pun intended) but as SamH says in the comments on the Youtube video below for the plugin, "Am throwing money at the screen."

Introduction to FabFilter Pro-Q 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYTCQeggyzo

FabFilter Pro-Q - EQ Tips & Tricks"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSNYBbPAvKE
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2, Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10
Playback: McIntosh MC2105 > McIntosh C39 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider

Offline if_then_else

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 274
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 04:25:44 AM »
If memory serves, there.are seasonal discounts with the Fabfilter plugins at the EOY.

Offline Perry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
  • Gender: Male
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2017, 04:05:46 PM »
Good advice in this thread. A few of things I've learned from experience, YMMV:

1. I have to be completely sober when I EQ. Otherwise, I can get carried away.
2. Use a parametric equalizer with variable Q.
3. Don't work at it for hours at a time. Aural fatigue sets in and I can no longer "hear straight". This is especially true when using headphones.
4. Make small changes and listen for a bit, repeat.
5. When I think I've got it dialed in, I put it aside for a day. Re-listen tomorrow with fresh ears. I rarely get it right on the first try.
6. Listen to the final product in several environments (headphones, home stereo, car, etc.) before finalizing your project.

I've always used the parametric EQ that comes with Audition but after looking at Pro-Q 2 I'm steppin' up my game.
"It hurts to lean back in handcuffs..."
^^~~~~~~~Todd Snider~~~~~~~^^

Offline EmRR

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 90
    • ElectroMagnetic Radiation Recorders
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 05:28:13 PM »
Compare on multiple systems. Go back and forth between speakers and headphones, for instance.  For many people, bass is easier to sort in headphones than speakers.  I have big speakers, small speakers, really tiny speakers, and headphones.  In multiple rooms. 

Make those big broad moves with EQ to find the sweet or sour spots.  Many times in the end, I find the only move that doesn't make something worse is very small, like +1 or -1 dB, but bigger moves are useful for hearing it more clearly. 

Occasionally a narrow band can save something missing, like the bottom thud of a kick drum in a sea of mud, or sibilance in vocals or cymbals.  There, you are searching for a narrow resonance, and steering it so as to not affect surroundings. 

Offline Scooter123

  • "I am not an alcoholic. I am a drunk. Drunks don't go to meetings."
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 918
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 11:00:55 PM »
A good audience show will take minimum an hour or two to master

Many use isotope to scrub a recording before diving into details.  The pre-scrub will remove clicks (claps) and hoots and hollars.  An hour show will take about 5 minutes for isotope to process.

Then dive into the details, such as specific issues, a talker, more clapping, more whistles.  Izotope with the specral graph can isolate and remove those for you.

Finally, when the recording is clean, start to EQ.  For Schoeps in a large boomy building, I will do a high pass filter at 80, maybe higher.  For Neumanns, you'll need to boost the bass and cut the highs. 

Use a cue sheet file, so the song splits will stay the same on multiple attempts at your mix. 

Yes, try various EQ settings with a nice pair of speakers, headphones, and perhaps some Auraltone speakers.  If it sounds bad on Auraltones, you have big problems somewhere. 

Understand that there is probably very little above 16,000 except some harmonics

Buy some good books at Amazon, but there is no substitute for trying and making mistakes.  I only learn by making mistakes.





Regards,

Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline rigpimp

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1939
  • Gender: Male
  • Jarts don't kill people!
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2017, 12:24:18 AM »
I am not typically worried about talkers, clappers and whistlers.  If that bothered me I'm actually pretty handy with iZotope's RX Advanced suite and the lasso tool.  I can use those noise reduction modules as it pertains to restoring analog recordings.  I did it for years but mostly know buzzes, hums and hisses.  It is really understanding frequency bands, what instruments fall into which, and how to EQ it all that I struggle with.  I am getting better quickly and am a lot less frustrated than I was when I made the OP. 

I am both a visual and aural learner.  I like to see graphs AND use my ears but my ears are not the greatest and could use some training. 

Also, while I agree that every show is different, or sets from a show in the case of my recording from Saturday, there are some things I agree with posted here and some that I do not.

~95% of the time I am an open taper.  I know that location plays a huge part in making a better sounding recording.  BUT you don't always get your mics into the mouth of the beast and you gotta take what you can get.  That is often the case with larger, concerts in reserved seating where you are not supposed to be recording at all in the first place.  Even if you know the sweet spot at that venue from a previous concert it can EASILY change to the next.  You might be close, but, well I digress.

There are patterns to follow.  I know when bass sounds thin.  I know when highs sound too bright/airy or too dark.  Does it vary?  Sure, but don't say there aren't hard set rules.  I found this Carnegie Chart PDF on iZotope's EQ Learning page the other night.  I printed it up and set in front of my DAW for reference.  https://pae.izotope.com/doc/frequency-chart.pdf  Those kind of look like rules to me.  At least soft-boiled ones.   :coolguy:

I'm a geek about really good software.  It is worth the price to me.  I fell in love with the iZotope products and think there is a special place in heaven for the engineers that write those crazy RX algorithms.  I got that same tingle when I loaded up the Pro-Q plugin for the first time.  Thank you for turning me on to that tool Sloan. 

I appreciate everyone's input.  Keep it coming!

Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2, Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10
Playback: McIntosh MC2105 > McIntosh C39 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider

Offline beatkilla

  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1530
  • Gender: Male
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2017, 09:33:07 AM »

Offline ilduclo

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4562
Re: EQ Help
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2017, 10:17:16 AM »
Interesting discussion! I recently recorded a couple of metal sets where the sound guy just didn't have it right...I generally feel it's a GIGO situation, but if there is anyone here who would volunteer to listen to a short portion of it and make suggestions as to what I could possibly do to improve it, I'd be really appreciative.

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.27 seconds with 43 queries.
© 2002-2018 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF