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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2  (Read 15008 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #180 on: October 15, 2018, 10:46:12 AM »
Fun times!

I've had a Roland R-88 on loan from Spyder9's for the past couple months, and finally employed all 8 channels this past Saturday recording Ween at the Fillmore in Miami Beach.  It's a quite nice recorder, although almost comically large in comparison to the more contemporary compact Zoom F8.

I used the extra two channels to record a second rear-facing channel and a fig-8 Side channel coincident with the front-facing center.  I've been wanting to record a stereo pair of rear-facing channels for a long time, and the 8 inputs of the R-88 make doing that easy without needing to use the V3 to get more than 6 channels into the DR-680.  It also makes it possible to play back a stereo mix of all 8 channels directly from the recorder, including Mid/Side matrixing of the center pair.

If I move to recording 8 channels regularly, I think this arrangement is most likely to end up as my standard 8 ch OMT setup.  The other 8 ch option I'd like to try is placing front/back-facing figure-8's coincident with the wide-spaced omnis, allowing me to dial in front/back facing wide pairs of any pattern, but I can't currently support the weight of the 8's and their cables at the ends of the telescopic antennas.

Total channel count was as follows:
ch 1/2 = 4061 omnis in APE spheres (widely spaced, facing the rear corners of room)
ch 3 = 4098 supercard- 0º forward-facing center (Mid); ch 4 = Naiant X-8S fig-8- 90º sideway-facing (Side)
ch 5/6 = 4098 supercard Left/Right forward-facing pair- angled ~ +/-35º towards outside edge of stage/PA (forming near-spaced L/C/R triplet with center mic)
ch 7/8 = 4098 supercard Left/Right rear facing pair (angled/spaced such that their null angles more or less face directly forward, and such that the 5 supercard array has appropriate angle/spacing relationships all the way around.

A couple photos-
The 5 microphones in the center are the DPA 4098 supercards.  The center is in the big Shure windscreen along with a Naiant X-8S fig-8 forming the Mid/Side pair.  Zac, the other taper from California, was running Octava cardioids>FRLE2 and doing the entire tour.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 11:41:38 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #181 on: October 15, 2018, 11:18:59 AM »
A few photos of the 6ch OMT rig about a month ago at a gig in a cool basement club, effectively "on-stage".  This was a tight spot for it, and I pretty much wedged it in next to the keyboard player.  This is my standard 6ch OMT setup featuring a single rear-channel, with big Shure windscreens on all 4 of the supercards.  This was also recorded into the R-88, serving as my first real test of that recorder.

Fantastic band featuring a couple local Joe Zawinul Syndicate members, doing Weather Report material.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #182 on: October 15, 2018, 11:49:06 AM »
While I'm at it, below are a couple shots from my initial trial run of the R-88.  Same recording setup and same guitar player as above (Randy Bernsen) in a trio format with a couple different outstanding local musicians.  This was an anniversary party for the bar/brewery, at which I had not planned to record, but had the rig in the car just in case.  Sure enough, as expected the scene was not conducive to recording with no good place to make the effort to place the rig..  Yet upon walking around the back of the pop-up canopy forming the stage, I found the sound was not too bad behind the acoustically transparent backdrop immediately behind the drummer.  So I set up the rig back there simply to do a trial run.  Worked out better than expected, if nothing spectacular with the guitar and bass amps facing forward and the drummer's body occluding portions of the kit.  As you can tell from the photos, I actually shifted the rig off center towards the  bass-player's side in order to get a clearer path to the snare-drum around the drummer's back.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline jcable77

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #183 on: October 15, 2018, 08:31:18 PM »
A few photos of the 6ch OMT rig about a month ago at a gig in a cool basement club, effectively "on-stage".  This was a tight spot for it, and I pretty much wedged it in next to the keyboard player.  This is my standard 6ch OMT setup featuring a single rear-channel, with big Shure windscreens on all 4 of the supercards.  This was also recorded into the R-88, serving as my first real test of that recorder.

Fantastic band featuring a couple local Joe Zawinul Syndicate members, doing Weather Report material.
Nice GB. What was the lineup for this? Doesnt look like Scott Kinsey on keys but I cant tell? Love that stuff. Any chance of hearing it?
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Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #184 on: October 15, 2018, 10:34:20 PM »
I always like seeing these rigs, food for thought.....

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #185 on: October 16, 2018, 07:43:03 AM »
In a quick throwdown mix, I like it.
The 0º CM3 brought the vocal amplifier from its natural 1 o'clock position in the sound field, and, dragged it to the center at 12.  That was actually kind of a nice bend.  The binaural stereo aspect remained strong in headphone listening; rightfully. I've only listened to a few songs, and via headphones. But I have had a chance to compare binaural and bino-mix that way.  The binaural stereo is a bit softer presentation; the Mix is more dynamic, especially in vocal presentation.

Mike, it is good that bino-mix is sounding well. It is difficult for me to compare different variation and decide which is better. But I noticed that the more time I spent by listening and remixing the decision is easier. By the way you made nice stereo bar. I have one very similar but without angle lines. I will paint them too.

Gutbucket, many thanks for your posts and detailed explanation with photos. I appreciate it. It is great new that I can try omt for stage-lip and onstage. I like these setups a lot. The rig for Ween in FOB looks impressive.

Fantastic band featuring a couple local Joe Zawinul Syndicate members, doing Weather Report material.

The bass player of Weather Report Miroslav Vitous is living in my town. Unfortunately I can only use stealth setup at his little common gigs. By the way, I remember that you mentioned about basic omt for stealth setup for fun. I like this idea. I tried it once with two omnis and forward and rear cards. I put a lot of cables and I did not feel comfortable. But it was fun in the end.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #186 on: October 16, 2018, 10:23:05 AM »
A few photos of the 6ch OMT rig about a month ago at a gig in a cool basement club, effectively "on-stage".  This was a tight spot for it, and I pretty much wedged it in next to the keyboard player.  This is my standard 6ch OMT setup featuring a single rear-channel, with big Shure windscreens on all 4 of the supercards.  This was also recorded into the R-88, serving as my first real test of that recorder.

Fantastic band featuring a couple local Joe Zawinul Syndicate members, doing Weather Report material.
Nice GB. What was the lineup for this? Doesnt look like Scott Kinsey on keys but I cant tell? Love that stuff. Any chance of hearing it?

Johnathan Joseph- drums
Randy Bernsen- guitar/midi-guitar
Jose Gola- bass
Abel Pabon- keys

They are playing gigs as WeatherUnderground

The above date was essentially a warm up down gig here prior to hitting the Iridium in NYC the following weekend. I need to mix it properly and hand it off to Joseph and Bernsen first, but I don't foresee any reason I shouldn't be able to share it.  Hang tight and I'll get to it.  It's the recording I've been most excited about recently and well worth the wait IMHO. I did make a slap-dash real-time stereo mix (R88>R44) the following day using headphones just to have something to listen to more easily, and because I might let the R-88 go. Also recorded a portion of their pre-show run-through as well (although cut short to save on limited card space), and it's real treat to hear everything snap into place as they work through a few of the more complex sections.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #187 on: October 16, 2018, 10:57:40 AM »
The rig for Ween in FOB looks impressive.

The photo from below up toward the ceiling made me laugh out loud when going through them the next day.  Looks like some psychedelic taloned Ween bird Ween character / Klingon bird-of-prey swooping in to snatch a baby bunny or something.  Fortunately setup wasn't nearly as visually domineering viewed from audience level where the center array mics are all in the same plane.. except for the overall width at 6'.

Quote
The bass player of Weather Report Miroslav Vitous is living in my town.

Jose Gola is from Cuba (plays frequency with Gonzalo Rubalcaba).  He's an amazing player with monster tone.  The wide omnis really helped to capture his sound with an uncommon immensity, depth and envelopment.  Big shoes to fill as Jaco Pastorius was a South Florida native and he and Randy Bernsen grew up together here in Ft Lauderdale.

Let's keep the stealth discussions in PMs, thanks! Glad to hear you're enjoying this stuff and it's working well for you.  A critical aspect for sure is making these setups as easily manageable as possible/practical.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #188 on: October 16, 2018, 11:40:00 AM »
Did some photo analysis to better determine the approximate microphone spacings and angles I used at the Ween show.  Mostly documented this for my own records so I can remember what I did moving forward.  Anyway, I submit the following for consideration in the "more information than anyone here is likely to want" category-
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline jcable77

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #189 on: October 16, 2018, 07:46:27 PM »
A few photos of the 6ch OMT rig about a month ago at a gig in a cool basement club, effectively "on-stage".  This was a tight spot for it, and I pretty much wedged it in next to the keyboard player.  This is my standard 6ch OMT setup featuring a single rear-channel, with big Shure windscreens on all 4 of the supercards.  This was also recorded into the R-88, serving as my first real test of that recorder.

Fantastic band featuring a couple local Joe Zawinul Syndicate members, doing Weather Report material.
Nice GB. What was the lineup for this? Doesnt look like Scott Kinsey on keys but I cant tell? Love that stuff. Any chance of hearing it?

Johnathan Joseph- drums
Randy Bernsen- guitar/midi-guitar
Jose Gola- bass
Abel Pabon- keys

They are playing gigs as WeatherUnderground

The above date was essentially a warm up down gig here prior to hitting the Iridium in NYC the following weekend. I need to mix it properly and hand it off to Joseph and Bernsen first, but I don't foresee any reason I shouldn't be able to share it.  Hang tight and I'll get to it.  It's the recording I've been most excited about recently and well worth the wait IMHO. I did make a slap-dash real-time stereo mix (R88>R44) the following day using headphones just to have something to listen to more easily, and because I might let the R-88 go. Also recorded a portion of their pre-show run-through as well (although cut short to save on limited card space), and it's real treat to hear everything snap into place as they work through a few of the more complex sections.
Thank GB. Psyched to hear it!!!!
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Offline aaronji

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #190 on: October 17, 2018, 08:52:07 AM »
A few photos

I love that last photo ("listen and silent are spelled with the same letters")!  I wish more venues had that sort of thing, especially for quieter music, such as jazz or bluegrass...

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #191 on: October 22, 2018, 03:59:24 PM »
I just posted the content below in another thread were we had been discussing sphere attachments for omnis, yet had been unable to find it since the title of the thread is Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones.  Anyway, I'm pretty much duplicating the same content here, where we've been talking more specifically and in depth about these things-


I recently came across a website specializing in classical recording, which has generously made available various comparative sample recordings for download.  The methodology seems very well-controlled in comparison to many taper comps, making these comparisons especially useful

   The Research on Classical Music Recording - for the future of music production and recording
   Nagoya University of the Arts, Kazuya Nagae
   http://kazuyanagae.com/


Of the numerous comparisons linked there, one is of pairs of 60cm spaced DPA 4006 omnis with and without the DPA 50mm diameter APE sphere attachments installed. Listen for yourself and hear the somewhat subtle but certainly audible effect imparted by the spheres here- http://kazuyanagae.com/20110930windorch/index.html[/b]

Also hear the comparison of 30cm, 60cm, and 100cm omni spacing (without the sphere attachments)- http://kazuyanagae.com/20110420orch/index.html

I've yet to explore the other comparisons available there.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #192 on: October 24, 2018, 10:05:37 PM »
Apologies if this has been brought up and discussed already, but has anyone tried incorporating a vertically-oriented mic in the OMT setups?  I know this can be done with ambisonics, but I don't think there are many here incorporating an ambisonic mic in an OMT setup (other than Gutbucket).
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #193 on: October 25, 2018, 10:49:24 AM »
I've not. Not saying upward facing microphones wouldn't ever be useful, it's just that there are so many other things I'd use an additional channel for that take precedent, except in special cases*.. and I see a fundamental problem with upward facing microphones that I'll explain below.  Other than a few test recordings at Wanee a few years ago that I never really got around to messing with, it wasn't until just recently that I ran a pair of rear facing microphones instead of a single rear-facing channel, which I suspect is more important than an upward facing one.  And I didn't do either until moving to recording 8 channels rather than 6.

*A special case- I've pointed the single rear-facing channel upwards (sort of diagonally up and back) when there was some obstruction like a wall immediately behind the recording position to avoid a strong reflection off of it.  Rocksuitcase and Kindms have done the same and posted a photo of it in this thread, but I'd have to go back to look for it.  In those cases the upward-facing channel proved useful in lieu of a rear-facing one. 

More thoughts on this in a following post..
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #194 on: October 25, 2018, 12:25:54 PM »
Apologies if this has been brought up and discussed already, but has anyone tried incorporating a vertically-oriented mic in the OMT setups?  I know this can be done with ambisonics, but I don't think there are many here incorporating an ambisonic mic in an OMT setup (other than Gutbucket).
At least once we oriented the ck22's (omnis) up as opposed to pointed forward, but that shouldn't matter much to the overall blend of the 4 or 6 channels. I think you are asking about the center mic(s) being oriented vertically? As gut mentioned, we did that to compensate for a close wall to the rear mic once. Pic is in this thread or in rig pics- fall 2017 or so timeframe.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 12:55:48 PM by rocksuitcase »
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