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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2  (Read 18097 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #255 on: December 05, 2018, 05:23:30 PM »
Worth a try to find out.  Maybe the single omni on stage will be useful, can't say.  May depend on the type of music and situation.  If you want to mix the omni in with that M/S pair, it would theoretically be best to put it directly atop the ADK/481 pair so the capsules of all three microphones are as close to vertically coincident as possible.

I'm assuming the ADK is LD side-address, perhaps a TL..
Just a setup option, but with regards to the straight M/S pair you may be able to gaff-tape the 481 directly to the ADK with a couple foam earplugs in between to cushion them, then put both in the same shockmount (depending on the mount and the room within it) or support both using just a ADK hard-mount (more definitely doable).  In that case the LD side-address ADK would not be oriented vertically but horizontally so that both mic-bodies pointed directly forward.  Nice and compact that way.  Forgive me if the gaff-tape thing rubs you the wrong way, it does some folks who would never consider such a thing and always use proper mounts.  The other ADK could be mounted in the same orientation above that, with all three mic-bodies parallel, but might be best to point it directly forward where it's switched omni pattern will be better behaved.

Me? With hypers 40' back and a board-feed, I'd be tempted to use the ADKs as wide omnis on stage, and as long as you have the capability for running all three mics up there I'd probably put the 481 in the middle to make a spaced L/C/R arrangement across the stage .  If it's super chatty up there and the music soft such that on-stage omnis would be overly compromised, you could then simply switch the ADKs from omni to cardioid without having to move anything and have three spaced cardioids across the front of the stage facing away from the audience and at the band.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Online jcable77

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #256 on: December 05, 2018, 07:45:39 PM »
Thanks man. I like the idea of pointing the 481 and TL forward. That does make it more compact and efficient. Ive tried a few different set ups at this particular spot, spaced omnis, L/C/R, and a few other weird ones, Im really interested in the mixdown part of MS. The figure8 is new to me, looking forward to messing around with it. Constant learning experience. Greatly appreciate your input as always.
ADK a51tl’s, Telefunken m60’s tk60’s,61’s,62’s, Teac me-120’s(c,o,sh)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Improved PAS 2-channel microphone setup technique revisited
« Reply #257 on: December 11, 2018, 05:08:47 PM »
Regulars following this thread may already be aware of this, but I figured I'd post notice here as well-

A few days ago I revised the Improved PAS microphone setup method so that it now suggests the most appropriate spacing between a stereo-pair of microphones of any 1st order directional pattern pointed directly at PA speakers which are setup traditionally, flanking either side of the stage.  This means this taper-specific microphone-setup methodology no longer applies just to cardioids but provides the appropriate spacing for omnis, subcardioids, supercardioids, and bidirectional (fig-8) microphones as well. 

Essentially, Improved PAS is the concert-taper application of the Stereo Zoom empirical data to the commonly used Point At Stacks microphone setup method, made easily applicable via a simple to read table.

I had intended to revisit this for a few years now, but have spent most of that time thinking about and exploring OMT.  Now that I've finally gotten around to readdressing and expanding Improved PAS, I consider it a significant step forward for making stereo-optimized 2-channel audience-perspective recordings of PA amplified concerts in simple and repeatable way, without the luxury of audio monitoring and readjustment of the setup to get things optimized prior to making the recording (which is simply assumed for most music recording, but almost never done for audience concert taping), even in rooms in which the taper has no previous experience.

Actually, the method can be applied more widely than amplified PA recording - it's just that it is particularly well suited for the Point At Stacks microphone setup technique.  Essentially it is a subset of the Stereo Zoom solutions where the angle between the microphones is the same as the Orchestra Angle - which is the width of the entire ensemble, or in the case of PA amplified concerts the width of the main PA speakers flanking the stage.  This provides good stereo imaging of the sources within the angle described by the microphones, with either microphone defining the outer edge of the pickup "sound-stage", and that window also corresponding to the playback "sound-stage" between speakers. 
^
In that way it works the way most novice tapers assume a stereo-pair of microphones always work, even though in the vast majority of arrangements they do not.

Improved PAS thread-  https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.msg2087409#msg2087409
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 06:32:36 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #258 on: December 11, 2018, 06:18:46 PM »
And that brings me back to an interesting question we discussed earlier in this thread, which I'll paraphrase as- "If the recording is intended for 2-channel playback, and the OMT setup includes more than one forward-facing pair of microphones, should each pair be setup so as to have the same Stereo Recording Angle?"

Based on my experience with OMT the answer is no, because as I've stated previously I see the primary value of OMT as being optimal integration of different stereo aspects which each microphone pair has been separately optimized for.  The omni pair in particular being spaced to optimize diffuse decorrelated ambient pickup rather than SRA.  Yet I don't claim that as the only appropriate goal with regards to the combination of multiple microphone channels intended to make 2-channel stereo recording.  One might try to optimize for a single stereo aspect, specifically sharpest source location imaging.

I can imagine the potential value in matching the SRA of several pairs of microphones of different polar patterns and mixing them with that goal in mind.  I'd think this would be most applicable for recording sources and ensembles which have a lot of specific imaging potential, valuing image location sharpness and clarity across the front sound-stage more highly than the balance between front imaging and the sense of an immersive diffuse ambience surrounding the listener.  This may have the potential to sound less "smeared" to listeners highly sensitive to such.  It's also closer to how most tapers run two pairs of microphones, just setup in a very specific way.

For anyone wanting to try this I'd suggest using either of the two coincident arrangements on the Improved PAS table (there are only two) in combination with a pair of spaced omnis setup for the same included angle.  Those setups are:

1) A coincident pair of supercardioids with a 120 degree angle between them + a pair of omnis spaced 61cm / 24" (with the same 120 degree angle between omnis, although this is less important for omnis than getting the spacing right).

2) A coincident pair of figure-8's with an 80 degree angle between them + a pair of omnis spaced 76cm / 30" (with the same 120 degree angle between omnis..)


One would ideally want those 120 or 80 degree inclusive angles to be close to the angle between the PA stacks (or width of the ensemble), and to do so one would need to find a recording position where that occurs.  But that's not critical for the primary purpose of this experiment.  That's because what we will be listening for in this case is how closely matched the positional imaging between the two pairs is upon playback, rather than getting an optimal overall width.  And secondly, how well the two sources combine when mixed- is the positional location of each source sharper and more well-defined than when the center coincident pair is angled narrower and the omni pair spaced wider as it would be with "standard" OMT?  Is the imaging closely-matched enough so that the two pairs combine well even though they are closer to each other and intentionally have more overlap?  Do other aspects suffer too much because of that extra overlap?  Combing maybe?

Anyway I think this will be interesting to try.

[Edit- the particularly astute may note that the omni spacings I mention above are not those indicated on the Improved PAS table for 120 and 80 degree PAS omnis, but those for 115 and 75 degree PAS omnis.  That's because the coincident supercardioid and fig-8 arrangements solve for a Stereo Recording Angle of PAS +~5 or 6 degrees (which is as close to PAS+10 degrees as they can get without going "closer than coincident", an impossibility) rather than PAS+~10 degrees used across the rest of the table.  Given that, in order to keep the Stereo Recording Angles of both pairs marched as closely as possible, I subtracted 5 degrees from the PAS angle before looking up the omni spacing, making both pairs solve for approximately the same overall Stereo Recording Angle.]
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 06:53:59 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline love2tape

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #259 on: December 11, 2018, 10:46:15 PM »
Between this and the improved PAS thread, I just want to say that I fucking love you, GB.

That's all I have to contribute at this time, really.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #260 on: December 12, 2018, 09:34:14 AM »
Hey thanks! That feels good. Glad this stuff is appreciated and I hope it helps.  I've huge respect for all the folks here who are so prolific in posting and sharing their recordings, whereas I contribute in this way - each of us a part of the taper community contributing what and where we can.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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