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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2  (Read 28774 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #255 on: December 05, 2018, 05:23:30 PM »
Worth a try to find out.  Maybe the single omni on stage will be useful, can't say.  May depend on the type of music and situation.  If you want to mix the omni in with that M/S pair, it would theoretically be best to put it directly atop the ADK/481 pair so the capsules of all three microphones are as close to vertically coincident as possible.

I'm assuming the ADK is LD side-address, perhaps a TL..
Just a setup option, but with regards to the straight M/S pair you may be able to gaff-tape the 481 directly to the ADK with a couple foam earplugs in between to cushion them, then put both in the same shockmount (depending on the mount and the room within it) or support both using just a ADK hard-mount (more definitely doable).  In that case the LD side-address ADK would not be oriented vertically but horizontally so that both mic-bodies pointed directly forward.  Nice and compact that way.  Forgive me if the gaff-tape thing rubs you the wrong way, it does some folks who would never consider such a thing and always use proper mounts.  The other ADK could be mounted in the same orientation above that, with all three mic-bodies parallel, but might be best to point it directly forward where it's switched omni pattern will be better behaved.

Me? With hypers 40' back and a board-feed, I'd be tempted to use the ADKs as wide omnis on stage, and as long as you have the capability for running all three mics up there I'd probably put the 481 in the middle to make a spaced L/C/R arrangement across the stage .  If it's super chatty up there and the music soft such that on-stage omnis would be overly compromised, you could then simply switch the ADKs from omni to cardioid without having to move anything and have three spaced cardioids across the front of the stage facing away from the audience and at the band.
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Offline jcable77

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #256 on: December 05, 2018, 07:45:39 PM »
Thanks man. I like the idea of pointing the 481 and TL forward. That does make it more compact and efficient. Ive tried a few different set ups at this particular spot, spaced omnis, L/C/R, and a few other weird ones, Im really interested in the mixdown part of MS. The figure8 is new to me, looking forward to messing around with it. Constant learning experience. Greatly appreciate your input as always.

Offline Gutbucket

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Improved PAS 2-channel microphone setup technique revisited
« Reply #257 on: December 11, 2018, 05:08:47 PM »
Regulars following this thread may already be aware of this, but I figured I'd post notice here as well-

A few days ago I revised the Improved PAS microphone setup method so that it now suggests the most appropriate spacing between a stereo-pair of microphones of any 1st order directional pattern pointed directly at PA speakers which are setup traditionally, flanking either side of the stage.  This means this taper-specific microphone-setup methodology no longer applies just to cardioids but provides the appropriate spacing for omnis, subcardioids, supercardioids, and bidirectional (fig-8) microphones as well. 

Essentially, Improved PAS is the concert-taper application of the Stereo Zoom empirical data to the commonly used Point At Stacks microphone setup method, made easily applicable via a simple to read table.

I had intended to revisit this for a few years now, but have spent most of that time thinking about and exploring OMT.  Now that I've finally gotten around to readdressing and expanding Improved PAS, I consider it a significant step forward for making stereo-optimized 2-channel audience-perspective recordings of PA amplified concerts in simple and repeatable way, without the luxury of audio monitoring and readjustment of the setup to get things optimized prior to making the recording (which is simply assumed for most music recording, but almost never done for audience concert taping), even in rooms in which the taper has no previous experience.

Actually, the method can be applied more widely than amplified PA recording - it's just that it is particularly well suited for the Point At Stacks microphone setup technique.  Essentially it is a subset of the Stereo Zoom solutions where the angle between the microphones is the same as the Orchestra Angle - which is the width of the entire ensemble, or in the case of PA amplified concerts the width of the main PA speakers flanking the stage.  This provides good stereo imaging of the sources within the angle described by the microphones, with either microphone defining the outer edge of the pickup "sound-stage", and that window also corresponding to the playback "sound-stage" between speakers. 
^
In that way it works the way most novice tapers assume a stereo-pair of microphones always work, even though in the vast majority of arrangements they do not.

Improved PAS thread-  https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.msg2087409#msg2087409
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 06:32:36 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #258 on: December 11, 2018, 06:18:46 PM »
And that brings me back to an interesting question we discussed earlier in this thread, which I'll paraphrase as- "If the recording is intended for 2-channel playback, and the OMT setup includes more than one forward-facing pair of microphones, should each pair be setup so as to have the same Stereo Recording Angle?"

Based on my experience with OMT the answer is no, because as I've stated previously I see the primary value of OMT as being optimal integration of different stereo aspects which each microphone pair has been separately optimized for.  The omni pair in particular being spaced to optimize diffuse decorrelated ambient pickup rather than SRA.  Yet I don't claim that as the only appropriate goal with regards to the combination of multiple microphone channels intended to make 2-channel stereo recording.  One might try to optimize for a single stereo aspect, specifically sharpest source location imaging.

I can imagine the potential value in matching the SRA of several pairs of microphones of different polar patterns and mixing them with that goal in mind.  I'd think this would be most applicable for recording sources and ensembles which have a lot of specific imaging potential, valuing image location sharpness and clarity across the front sound-stage more highly than the balance between front imaging and the sense of an immersive diffuse ambience surrounding the listener.  This may have the potential to sound less "smeared" to listeners highly sensitive to such.  It's also closer to how most tapers run two pairs of microphones, just setup in a very specific way.

For anyone wanting to try this I'd suggest using either of the two coincident arrangements on the Improved PAS table (there are only two) in combination with a pair of spaced omnis setup for the same included angle.  Those setups are:

1) A coincident pair of supercardioids with a 120 degree angle between them + a pair of omnis spaced 61cm / 24" (with the same 120 degree angle between omnis, although this is less important for omnis than getting the spacing right).

2) A coincident pair of figure-8's with an 80 degree angle between them + a pair of omnis spaced 76cm / 30" (with the same 120 degree angle between omnis..)


One would ideally want those 120 or 80 degree inclusive angles to be close to the angle between the PA stacks (or width of the ensemble), and to do so one would need to find a recording position where that occurs.  But that's not critical for the primary purpose of this experiment.  That's because what we will be listening for in this case is how closely matched the positional imaging between the two pairs is upon playback, rather than getting an optimal overall width.  And secondly, how well the two sources combine when mixed- is the positional location of each source sharper and more well-defined than when the center coincident pair is angled narrower and the omni pair spaced wider as it would be with "standard" OMT?  Is the imaging closely-matched enough so that the two pairs combine well even though they are closer to each other and intentionally have more overlap?  Do other aspects suffer too much because of that extra overlap?  Combing maybe?

Anyway I think this will be interesting to try.

[Edit- the particularly astute may note that the omni spacings I mention above are not those indicated on the Improved PAS table for 120 and 80 degree PAS omnis, but those for 115 and 75 degree PAS omnis.  That's because the coincident supercardioid and fig-8 arrangements solve for a Stereo Recording Angle of PAS +~5 or 6 degrees (which is as close to PAS+10 degrees as they can get without going "closer than coincident", an impossibility) rather than PAS+~10 degrees used across the rest of the table.  Given that, in order to keep the Stereo Recording Angles of both pairs marched as closely as possible, I subtracted 5 degrees from the PAS angle before looking up the omni spacing, making both pairs solve for approximately the same overall Stereo Recording Angle.]
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 06:53:59 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline love2tape

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #259 on: December 11, 2018, 10:46:15 PM »
Between this and the improved PAS thread, I just want to say that I fucking love you, GB.

That's all I have to contribute at this time, really.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #260 on: December 12, 2018, 09:34:14 AM »
Hey thanks! That feels good. Glad this stuff is appreciated and I hope it helps.  I've huge respect for all the folks here who are so prolific in posting and sharing their recordings, whereas I contribute in this way - each of us a part of the taper community contributing what and where we can.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline ycoop

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #261 on: December 20, 2018, 02:30:46 PM »
Sadly I didn’t take a picture of the rig in the wild, but I ran the CA14s spread about a meter on this antenna apparatus that I found at the local salvage yard (Urban Ore in Berkeley for any of you Bay Area folks). It seems to be designed to be placed into a socket of an analog TV. There was a ribbon attached which I snipped off. I just taped the contraption to my stand with gaff tape. I need to find a more elegant solution, as this was a major hassle to take apart.

Try using a Wintech clamp.  The part of the antenna which fits into the TV socket will fit into the stud-receiver of the clamp (secured with the thumb-screw) and the clamp can be quickly and easily attached to the stand.  I know several tapers who use that exact setup.  Simple, compact, easy.

Thanks for this advice! Though the socket part of the antenna wasn’t quite able to be held in place with the thumb screw. I was able to find a small piece of plastic tubing (don’t remember exactly what it’s called, but it was at the hardware store in the nuts/bolts section) that holds the antenna socket part snug and fits perfectly into the stud receiver (though only the one that holds the stud parallel to the clamp, seems like the holes are a hair different in size.) I’m going to glue the antenna into the plastic piece and now have a perfect solution. Hoping I can deploy it at my next show.
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Offline ycoop

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #262 on: December 28, 2018, 03:01:55 PM »
OMT rig in action: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=189094.msg2286338#msg2286338

Split the omnis a bit further this time, and went with XY90 for the center cards. I’m considering going with PAS hypers next time out at TxR depending on how this pull ended up.

Gave a listen on the way home, but hard to hear more nuance in my Camry.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #263 on: January 04, 2019, 05:32:59 PM »
I came across a paper which seems to support what I've come to consider an important underlying principle of OMT, although I only came to realize it as such over time - On the Management of Direct and Reflected Sounds in the 5.0 Surround Sound Reproduction System, authors P. Kleczkowski, A. Król and P. Małecki http://przyrbwn.icm.edu.pl/APP/PDF/128/a128z1ap02.pdf

The paper compares 4 different approaches to reproducing a single isolated source over a 5 channel surround playback array, using source material in which the direct and reverberant components are completely separated from each other (anechoic direct source + reverberant component derived from convolved spatial IR responses) and those components routed to various reproduction channels of the playback array in 4 different ways.  Conclusion is that listener preference tends towards isolation of the direct sound component to one playback channel only, with the reverberant component of the sound distributed across all playback channels.

Inverting that and extrapolating to the recording side of things, the application to OMT is that direct sound arriving from a specific on-axis direction in the horizontal plane is ideally picked up primarily by a single directional microphone of the array while the reverberant component of that sound is picked up by all microphones of the array, including the on-axis microphone in which the direct sound is isolated as much as possible.  More specific to OMT, and playback as well though not covered in this paper, is the consideration of pickup of the direct sound component, early reflection components and reverberation components as three separate entities, the application of that on editing/mixing and in some cases through to the reproduction of these components as separate entities to various degrees.  Recorded in such a way, recombination of these differentiated acoustic components can be carried through to the processing and mixing stage, and in some cases through playback itself if via a surround playback array (circling back to the focus of the research paper).

This applies to 2-channel as well as multichannel playback, but it is easiest to conceptualize in the special case of a playback arrangement where each microphone channel corresponds to a specific playback speaker. 

So I see parallels here to use of a strongly-directional single forward-facing center microphone (or a tightly-focused/correlated center stereo pair), with the other microphone channels serving as ambient spatial pickup of early-reflections and reverb, and in some cases providing a welcome Hass-effect presence reinforcement, which is what I feel the OCT-like sideways-facing supercards do in a 2-channel mix when a coincident-center pair is providing L/R stereoization imaging.

Of course direct sound isolation in a reverberant space using first-order microphones placed away from the source is marginal to begin with and there will be a significant direct sound leaking into the other microphone channels.  Fortunately we need a minimal amount of that for pair-wise capture and reproduction of directional imaging of sources between on-axis points anyway. It would be ideal if that interchannel "bleed" were to occur only within adjacent directional channel pairs, not spread out across more than two adjacent channels.  The paper does not address stereo imaging as such, but rather a single on-center-axis source and the "spatialization" of that signal.  Sure, spatialization is a stereo aspect, but is not "stereo imaging" in the sense of reproduction of specific source position.

Further, I see each directional microphone in the OMT array serving as "center channel" for that particular on-axis direction, with all other microphones of the array serving as reverberant pickup array for that center-channel orientation.  All axiis work together collectively in support of each other in this way.  This requires good management of the pattern overlap between adjacent pairs around the array.

^ In other words, for each primary direction a single directional microphone picks up the direct sound, the immediately adjacent directional microphones pickup (or emulate) early reflections, and all the microphones pickup the reverberant component.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 05:39:38 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #264 on: January 05, 2019, 09:03:41 AM »
I'm going to concur with the idea that the center channel (or narrowly angled coincident pair) provides a direct sound component which adds positive aspects to the mixing of multi microphone source recording; given the other microphone sources provide early reflection components and reverberation components based on their design. In a typical OMT where spaced omni microphones at least 1Meter, optimally 2Meter and possibly a fifth and sixth source adding either rear or sideways early reflection components and reverberation components allows one to mix the center, directional source to the advantage of the outcome. IMO, the outcome allows the mixer to experiment with the amount or ratio of direct to reverberent sound emphasizing whichever aspect the mixer is seeking.

I feel using OMT variants has made our recordings much more enjoyable from a practical pov, and possibly a bit more complicated to get a final 2 channel product from a results pov.
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #265 on: January 07, 2019, 10:41:00 AM »
Gutbucket, thanks a lot for the article link and for explanation. Just to be sure. Simply said, OMT provides direct sound by center coincident pair with high directional pattern, early reflections by side facing cardiods and diffuse field by omni and rear mics. Of course, there is some degree of bleed between all mics.
What I don't understand is how these parts were separated by those who wrote the article. They were using ambisonic mic. Do they decode virtual mics with required pattern and send these signals to the intended speaker? If it is explained in the article, I'm sorry. That article is not an easy text for me, so I may have misapprehend this.

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #266 on: January 07, 2019, 11:57:29 AM »
Gutbucket, thanks a lot for the article link and for explanation. Just to be sure. Simply said, OMT provides direct sound by center coincident pair with high directional pattern, early reflections by side facing cardiods and diffuse field by omni and rear mics. Of course, there is some degree of bleed between all mics.
What I don't understand is how these parts were separated by those who wrote the article. They were using ambisonic mic. Do they decode virtual mics with required pattern and send these signals to the intended speaker? If it is explained in the article, I'm sorry. That article is not an easy text for me, so I may have misapprehend this.

I'm guilty of speaking without reading the article, but would assume they are using the same ambisonic capture to create the multiple patterns by duplicating the files and processing them separately, in parallel, and then mixing them back together at the desired levels.  Perhaps there were more mics in the picture.....
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #267 on: January 07, 2019, 02:48:31 PM »
I'm guilty of speaking without reading the article, but would assume they are using the same ambisonic capture to create the multiple patterns by duplicating the files and processing them separately, in parallel, and then mixing them back together at the desired levels.  Perhaps there were more mics in the picture.....

I can imagine this procedure.  Maybe I am starting to understand (my English is weak and the text is not easy for me). They recorded impulse responses in a small wooden church by ambisonic mics. Then in anechoic test room, they played CD (Mozart, Bach ...) that was an anechoic recording. And the early reflection and diffuse field was artificially generated based on an anechoic recording and impulse responses of the wooden church. And then they looked for which speaker configuration is the best for playback.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 02:59:46 PM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #268 on: January 07, 2019, 03:23:27 PM »
[edit- kuba posed while I was typing this..]

EmRR- only one source microphone + multichannel convolution reverb (spatial impulse originally measured with an ambisonic microphone).  This is how they fully isolate the direct and reverberant portions of the signal form each other.


Kuba,
The authors of the research paper above specify that the source material they used was monophonic and anechoic.  They did not record the material themselves, but rather used pre-recorded sound samples that had been originally recorded with a single microphone in such a way that only the direct sound was captured (close-mic'ed and perhaps performed and recorded in an anechoic chamber).  So the sound source samples contain direct sound only, 100% dry, without any early reflections or reverberation.

They then use convolution reverb to generate the reverberant component from that dry anechoic signal.  The output from the convolution reverb is time-windowed such that the initial peak which represents the direct sound is cut off and discarded, leaving only the reverberant tail (the 100% wet 'verb portion of the output).  In addition, they use 5 channel convolution so that the reverberant signals sent to each of the 5 speakers are decorrelated with respect to each other.  That makes the reverberance much closer to naturally occuring reverberation, rather than routing an identical monophonic reverb signal to multiple speakers.

Just to be sure. Simply said, OMT provides direct sound by center coincident pair with high directional pattern, early reflections by side facing cardiods and diffuse field by omni and rear mics. Of course, there is some degree of bleed between all mics.
^
Pretty much.  The idea is to isolate the direct sound to the center pair as much as possible, while the diffuse reverberant sound is picked up by all the microphones of the array including the center pair.  Picking up the reverberation in all channels is unavoidable unless you substitute a SBD feed for the center microphone or pair, in which case the SBD actually is mostly direct signal, excepting any artificial 'verb added at the board.  Fortunately the conclusion of the paper is that 'verb in the center channel is actually prefered for 5 channel playback. 

Early reflections end up being picked up by the omnis as well as in the front pair.  If the additional sideways-facing supercards are used their sideways orientation tends to focus on the early reflections a bit more while still picking up significant direct sound.  Supercards are prefered for this because they pickup less direct sound, with the null of the supercard pattern facing toward the opposing side source/speaker, but even supercards (or sideways figure-8s) will still pickup a lot of direct sound arriving from directly ahead. 

I suspect the spacing between the center pair and omnis (and the spacing between the center pair and optional sideways-facing supercards) also serve to create some Hass delay effect for sounds arriving from either side well off the center-axis, which sort of serve as synthetic very-early-reflections even if there aren't any well-defined actual early reflections.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 03:27:26 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #269 on: January 07, 2019, 03:49:21 PM »
I feel using OMT variants has made our recordings much more enjoyable from a practical pov, and possibly a bit more complicated to get a final 2 channel product from a results pov.

Truth. Definitely more complicated.  Anyone using these methods will want to determine what level of complication they are comfortable with.  Fortunately one can stick with 3 or 4 channels and keep things relatively simple.  I will say from personal experience that additional channels are addictive however, and are hard to give up once I've heard what they add!

I ran an F8 for the first time last Thursday night without much time beforehand to get familiar with it.  Running an OMT8 setup into it using 8 microphones total I had my hands full during the first song just confirming that everything was running correctly and getting levels set correctly.. and that's just the recorder portion of setting up and running.  Fortunately the microphone setting up part is super-familiar and second-hand to me at this point.

Channel assignment was as follows:
ch1: L omni
ch2: R omni
ch3: C supercard (forward facing)
ch4: C fig8 (optional Side channel for C)
ch5: L supercard (sideways facing)
ch6: R supercard (sideways facing)
ch7: Ls supercard (rear facing)
ch8: Rs supercard (rear facing)
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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