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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2  (Read 35960 times)

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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #270 on: January 07, 2019, 04:15:02 PM »
Thank you for explaining. The experiment described in the article is very interesting. I'm very curious how it might sound in the test room.

I will say from personal experience that additional channels are addictive however, and are hard to give up once I've heard what they add!

Ha ha, I can imagine this very well. I tape very little now. But I have time to come back to my old OMT recordings. I am playing with it in DAW and I am starting to like post-processing. There is always something to be improved in small steps. I also like to play with mixing the rear microphone. I'm very curious what you will say about the benefit of the rear stereo pair.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #271 on: January 07, 2019, 05:23:17 PM »
I also like to play with mixing the rear microphone. I'm very curious what you will say about the benefit of the rear stereo pair.

Loving it!  I just never had the extra channel easily available to run it easily until recently, as the sideways facing supercards took priority when I was recording 6 channels.  I've really only run this for a couple things so far and only for the most recent do I have a good base-line of comparison with past recordings that used a single rear-facing channel.  I did some experiments with a few different rear stereo pairs at a few outdoor fests years ago, but couldn't do so very easily and never seriously played around with that aspect of those recordings.

It's very nice to listen to just the rear-facing pair in isolation and dial in a good balance of those two channels, then bring that up in the stereo mix.  Even more of the good stuff a single rear-facing channel provides with less conflict with the front/center focus, providing greater crowd/ambient immersion and "stereoness".  It's nice to have everything except the narrow-focused center generating a somewhat wider stereo field, leaving the center space for the forward-facing microphone or pair. 

I hope to better determine exactly how much width is best back there- which combination of angle and spacing makes the most sense and when to modify that based on the situation.  With that in mind I'm thinking of doing some in-depth test recordings of various rear-channel orientations out in our warehouse, walking all the way around the rig with a sound source and then comparing the recordings.  But that's likely to be more of an imaging related test and different than having a high SPL source like a band in front energizing the entire room and leaking into the rears, where reducing bleed from the front may be more valuable than 360 degree image stability.


I'm still working my head around M/S pair monitoring/playback from the F8.  I had the F8 set to recorded four stereo WAVs with the intention of recording ch's 3&4 as Mid and Side.  But upon playback from the F8 those two channels seem to behave as an already encoded L/R pair with adjustable L/R panning rather than adjustable stereo width.   The stereo from them in isolation sounds good, but is wider than I'd typically use in an OMT mix.  I'll have to get my DAW back in operation to really get into it this recent recording mix-wise.  Not sure if I'll need to setup the M/S linking differently or if I'll need to record to a single polyphonic WAV instead of separate stereo WAVs to get direct playback of a mix out of the F8 to work the way I want.  I also need to setup a multichannel playback system again to fully asses how all this works in surround playback since I'm currently limited to listening and mixing in 2ch stereo.. and I miss that.
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #272 on: January 09, 2019, 04:09:31 PM »
I like mixing rear mic in Mid/Side or better with the constant time shift across all frequencies. It always improved the recording. And rear stereo pair must be even better. When I go to record, I will try a side facing cardiods too. I have never tried it.  I imagined that side cardiods have less effect on the sound that the rear microphone. But that was just an imagine, I should try it and listen to it.

It is great idea to use recorder as mixer and playback source. It must be more comfortable for basic mixing and listening than to do it in DAW. Of course I understand, more detailed mixing and editing need DAW.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #273 on: January 09, 2019, 06:58:52 PM »
I like mixing rear mic in Mid/Side or better with the constant time shift across all frequencies.
By that do you mean a time delay, or a constant-phase (quadrature) shift?

Quote
I will try a side facing cardiods too. I have never tried it.  I imagined that side cardiods have less effect on the sound that the rear microphone. But that was just an imagine, I should try it and listen to it.

They are quite different in their effects.  I'll try and describe it this way-

To my ear, the rear microphone(s) primarily improve spatiality and immersion, the "I am there" feeling, the illusion of "realness" with regards to the audience and room.  They also help with the perception of the direct sound from the front energizing and interacting with the room.

The sideways facing supercards provide additional ambient width spatiality, but seem more about modifying the feeling of directness and proximity in the stereo mix (whereas with discrete multichannel or LCR playback they additionally serve to sufficiently differentiate L from C from R).  They sort of act like a zoom lens, a sort of sonic enhancer.  In some ways they substitute for the omnis in providing much of the primary L/R width (except in the bass) and in combination with the omnis provide a sort of hyper-realism effect.  This is partly where my speculation about Hass effect in the 2ch mix comes from.


In my quick mixes of the recent recording listening directly out of the F8 (still haven't gotten the center channel panning right) I found that it is not bad at all with the omnis muted.  Yeah it's lacking the lovely fat and wide bottom, but I suspect I might be able to lessen that absence with EQ.  The wide spacing on the omnis also provide some very nice decorrelated diffuse openness at mid and high frequencies, but the L/R supercards are providing the primary L/R information in this recording and mix at least.  I should note that this was recorded in a small club and I angled the L/R supercards forward (about +/- 35 to 40 degrees) rather than sideways.   Partly because I was asked to move the setup from my prefered location about 1/3 of the way back in the room to a position about 2/3rds of the way back just behind the soundboard and was concerned about picking up audience conversation back there, and party because I had angled them forward last year for the same band in the same room in my prefered location and wanted to minimize variables for comparison.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #274 on: January 11, 2019, 11:14:32 AM »
I like mixing rear mic in Mid/Side or better with the constant time shift across all frequencies.
By that do you mean a time delay, or a constant-phase (quadrature) shift?

I mean constant-phase shift. I didn't try it on many recording. I have just a few OMT recordings.  I am using four mics - spaced omni and front and rear directional mics. For this couple recordings, It was the best to do constant-phase shift in comparison with Mid/Side or simple mix of the rear mic. I am using free vst plugin PhaseBug.

Thanks for describing what side facing mics provide in final mix. It is very interesting and inspiring. I will try six mics recording. I'd love to try the side microphones. I will let know here how I will be successful.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #275 on: January 11, 2019, 11:33:06 AM »
I mean constant-phase shift. I didn't try it on many recording. I have just a few OMT recordings.  I am using four mics - spaced omni and front and rear directional mics. For this couple recordings, It was the best to do constant-phase shift in comparison with Mid/Side or simple mix of the rear mic. I am using free vst plugin PhaseBug.

Thanks for confirming this!  I've speculated here upon the possibly of that being a better option for mixing the rear microphone channel in a stereo mix.  It is essentially how the S channel (in LCRS) is encoded with older Dolby Surround (analog matrix not digital coded) in the Lt/Rt output.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline ycoop

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #276 on: January 12, 2019, 06:54:33 PM »
OMT rig in action: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=189094.msg2286338#msg2286338

Split the omnis a bit further this time, and went with XY90 for the center cards. I’m considering going with PAS hypers next time out at TxR depending on how this pull ended up.

Gave a listen on the way home, but hard to hear more nuance in my Camry.

Finally got this one mastered, tracked, and uploaded.

https://archive.org/details/gl2018-12-27.SanRafaelCA.ck1.ca14.OMTmix
Mics: Avantone CK-1s, AT853 c+o
Pres: CA9100
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #277 on: January 13, 2019, 09:12:30 AM »
OMT rig in action: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=189094.msg2286338#msg2286338

Split the omnis a bit further this time, and went with XY90 for the center cards. I’m considering going with PAS hypers next time out at TxR depending on how this pull ended up.

Gave a listen on the way home, but hard to hear more nuance in my Camry.

Finally got this one mastered, tracked, and uploaded.

https://archive.org/details/gl2018-12-27.SanRafaelCA.ck1.ca14.OMTmix

sounds really nice. i was able to listen to several tunes this morning. thanks for posting
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #278 on: January 14, 2019, 08:44:43 AM »
^x2!  Listening now..  Well done.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #279 on: January 14, 2019, 09:37:23 AM »
Y'all check out this OMT variant: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=189233.0
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2019-01-11.sbdakgdpa

I will come back and post pictures later today. The club allowed me to get the ladder and gaffe the DPA omnis inside their boundary mounts up high close to the stacks, directly on axis height wise about 17 feet up and spread about 20 feet apart.
Then added a mono SBD feed and two AKG ck3's in PAS for an AUD center channel pair since I had the SBD feed. So 2 Omnis spread 20 feet, 2 hypercards PAS in the center and a SBD feed. Certainly not a "classic" OMT, but a variant as I titled it.    ;)
Kung Fu
2019-01-11
Hollow Bar + Kitchen
Albany NY
Recording Info:
ch1/2 DPA 4061 omnis spread 20ft (609cm) 10 feet from PA stack, 15 feet up
ch3/4 AKG ck3 PAS 35 feet from stage 17 feet up (3 feet from ceiling)
ch5/6 SBD stereo feed Behringer m32 Tony FOH
      -> Tascam DR680|SD
music IS love

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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #280 on: January 14, 2019, 12:20:03 PM »
Y'all check out this OMT variant: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=189233.0
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2019-01-11.sbdakgdpa

I will come back and post pictures later today. The club allowed me to get the ladder and gaffe the DPA omnis inside their boundary mounts up high close to the stacks, directly on axis height wise about 17 feet up and spread about 20 feet apart.
Then added a mono SBD feed and two AKG ck3's in PAS for an AUD center channel pair since I had the SBD feed. So 2 Omnis spread 20 feet, 2 hypercards PAS in the center and a SBD feed. Certainly not a "classic" OMT, but a variant as I titled it.    ;)
Kung Fu
2019-01-11
Hollow Bar + Kitchen
Albany NY
Recording Info:
ch1/2 DPA 4061 omnis spread 20ft (609cm) 10 feet from PA stack, 15 feet up
ch3/4 AKG ck3 PAS 35 feet from stage 17 feet up (3 feet from ceiling)
ch5/6 SBD stereo feed Behringer m32 Tony FOH
      -> Tascam DR680|SD

I can only listen on my crappy work speakers at the moment but it sounds great nonetheless.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #281 on: January 14, 2019, 01:57:32 PM »
The club allowed me to get the ladder and gaffe the DPA omnis inside their boundary mounts up high close to the stacks, directly on axis height wise about 17 feet up and spread about 20 feet apart.
Then added a mono SBD feed and two AKG ck3's in PAS for an AUD center channel pair since I had the SBD feed. So 2 Omnis spread 20 feet, 2 hypercards PAS in the center and a SBD feed.
[snip]

ch1/2 DPA 4061 omnis spread 20ft (609cm) 10 feet from PA stack, 15 feet up
ch3/4 AKG ck3 PAS 35 feet from stage 17 feet up (3 feet from ceiling)
ch5/6 SBD stereo feed

Nice sounding, thanks Kyle!

Did you find you needed to time-shift the AKG channels with them recorded 35' away?

How good did the spaced omnis sound on their own?  I've found the relatively simple technique of using just a pair of wide-spaced omnis placed approximately 10' directly out in front of each PA stack to work very well,  achieving a good balance on its own when its possible to pull it off.  Plenty of clear, direct sound from each PA, with a strong center image from the monophonic content and much stereo differentiation of that direct PA sound as is present in the SBD (due to the wide spacing and close proximity to the PA), wide decorrelated room ambience and audience reaction keeping that stuff out of the center and making it more enveloping, an good positioning for pickup of early-reflections and on-stage-sound if those things are not swamped by the PA level.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #282 on: January 14, 2019, 02:21:01 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
1] The time shift was minimal, but I did delay the sbd 38ms relative to the ck3's.
2] The DPA's sounded GREAT without the SBD. Obviously not the same overall SPL in the mix, but instrumentation wise, even the vocals were good with the music great in the omni channels solo'd.
3] The oddity for me was listening to just ck3 and SBD. It had an envelopness to it which was intriguing and quite listenable depending on the overall slider levels.

all in all, not being straight AUD OMT, it stands out to me as a pretty fine recording. The lead guitar is abit low in the overall mix in all channels, and I chose to do zero EQ'ig as that is/was the only downside I hear at all in this mix.
music IS love

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #283 on: January 14, 2019, 05:50:40 PM »
Thanks!

It strikes me that in one way at least this recording is sort of the opposite of OMT in that it does not try to specifically record different aspects of the soundfield and then recombine them (even though that happens anyway as by-product), instead focusing on the direct PA/SBD sound as much as possible, picked up from different locations:

Pseudo-stack taping of the PA on both sides
PAS hypercards
SBD
^
All of which are primarily direct sound contributors.  What makes it work I think is that the two non SBD sources contain different amounts of all the other stuff which is of secondary importance to the direct sound (perhaps except for the guitar which was loud on-stage and thus under represented in the SBD) : The spaced omnis providing some wide decorrelated room and audience, and the PAS hypers correlated room and audience. 

It's hard to argue against this when it works and I certainly won't! 

However, I will say that I generally find it useful to dedicate at least one pair to avoiding this direct-sound-dominant redundancy by intentionally limiting pickup of it, so that when needed those other aspects can be brought up without also raising the level of the direct-SBD sound at the same time.. as long as one is assured of having enough of that most important direct sound in the other sources.  This probably calls to mind the rear-facing microphone channel(s) primarily, yet this thought experiment also sheds some light on things:

Say I'm running a 4 channel OMT setup with wide omnis + front/rear facing cardioids.  I'm offered a mono SBD feed and need to sacrifice one microphone channel to record it.  Which microphone channel do I give up?   As long as I know the SBD is clean, good-sounding, and all representative of the desired direct sound (a gamble perhaps!) I'd be most tempted to give up the forward facing center cardioid as that channel is an attempt at providing what the SBD feed actually provides in a better way (clear, proximate, direct source), whereas the other channels while providing some of that as well are primarily focused on recording other attributes of the soundfield.  I mostly want spatialization for that dry, direct SBD, room and audience sound.  The omnis alone or maybe even the rear facing channels alone should be able to supply that.

I've not done so, and it would take cajones for a taper to try it, but this is actually an argument to try recording just the stereo SBD + a pair of rear-facing microphones if limited to recording 4 channels.  Next time I get a SBD and have stereo rear channels going I'll try a mix of just those two parts to determine how well this works.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 05:52:56 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #284 on: January 14, 2019, 06:21:42 PM »
Thanks!
1]
It strikes me that in one way at least this recording is sort of the opposite of OMT in that it does not try to specifically record different aspects of the soundfield and then recombine them (even though that happens anyway as by-product), instead focusing on the direct PA/SBD sound as much as possible, picked up from different locations:

Pseudo-stack taping of the PA on both sides
PAS hypercards
SBD

2]
Say I'm running a 4 channel OMT setup with wide omnis + front/rear facing cardioids.  I'm offered a mono SBD feed and need to sacrifice one microphone channel to record it.  Which microphone channel do I give up?   As long as I know the SBD is clean, good-sounding, and all representative of the desired direct sound (a gamble perhaps!) I'd be most tempted to give up the forward facing center cardioid as that channel is an attempt at providing what the SBD feed actually provides in a better way (clear, proximate, direct source), whereas the other channels while providing some of that as well are primarily focused on recording other attributes of the soundfield.  I mostly want spatialization for that dry, direct SBD, room and audience sound.  The omnis alone or maybe even the rear facing channels alone should be able to supply that.

I've not done so, and it would take cajones for a taper to try it, but this is actually an argument to try recording just the stereo SBD + a pair of rear-facing microphones if limited to recording 4 channels.  Next time I get a SBD and have stereo rear channels going I'll try a mix of just those two parts to determine how well this works.
1] I agree with your technical assessment; this is not OMT. So much so that I wish I had PM'd you that day, as I ran through this thought experiment. I was prepared to do crossed hypers or cards in the middle with the spread omnis if no SBD. I then thought if I get offered SBD I would not want essentially 2 middle sources, so decided to go hypers PAS if offered the SBD (partly for OMT sake, partly due to knowledge of this room's acoustics- narrow shotgun style PA) Given your thoughts, I now grok the redundancy with my choice.     :-\

2] I thought over and over why not do front/rear cards, as in classic OMT? I did not prep for it, and so forgot about that option under setting up "pressures".   lol The other reason I decided in advance against front/rear is the design of the room itself, narrow and typically lots of chatter under the mics in that spot.
OTH- I tend to agree with the concept that the PAS mics took in about the same direct sound as the SBD and close mic'd Omnis. I will certainly try the rear facing mic/pair next time in this room with SBD feed as it makes great sense in this room.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

 

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