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Author Topic: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM  (Read 6960 times)

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Offline edtyre

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2018, 08:48:23 PM »
  Those who do it right don't have to tell everyone how great their recordings sound.

Amen, brother!
music>mics>pre>recorder

Offline Galen

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2018, 09:57:16 PM »
Let us take note here... someone said something about click/track - that is something which is either IN the mix or it is NOT IN the mix. You cannot control that whatsoever. I know a couple people will actually do their best to edit that out of IEM recordings but, uh, no way would I ever spend the amount of time to do that. And you cannot fully get it out. The more you mess with a recording the more it sounds... messed with.

I can hit a show and record like 4-5 mixes on average (always picking the best ones that sound most balanced but not all IEMs do). Remember, IEM's are tools for the musicians. Do I sit and spend the time to mix all that together in post to try and create something better than the original? Nope. But it is cool to see what one can record, record the best mixes. Sometimes if I have a couple extra minutes I will run Y adapters and do 'real time matrix' recordings of selected mixes and create cool mixes that way. But I rarely do anything in Post besides getting it ready for a CD (if I want to listen to it in my truck). The people who think IEM's are all laden with drop-outs, static and all sorts of annoying artifacts are... wait for it... correct. You can get to a show, be there for soundcheck but then get all sorts of interference from the physical members of the audience messing with the RF and your signal. Sometimes you have issues with brand-specific issues particularly if the antenna is too close (I know, it seems counterintuitive). Even if you are quite close. It is not a perfect science and anyone who conveys that it is definitely believes that the Earth is flat. But for the overwhelmingly most part, there is a night/day difference between RF/IEM vs just an AUD tape. These days, if I walk into a show with an AUD recording setup either they do not use IEM or I have multiple sources already recording.

I've seen this myth pop up quite a bit in discussion regarding IEM tapers. That there is a click. That there are several people who ship equipment to one another from this city to another. This, I will say, has happened and I have been on the receiving end of this a few times. But I am not involved in any sort of group. I am sure that people do this, for sure, but is that the norm? What is the norm? Beats me. I do not think that there is a secret society of IEM tapers who keep lock and stock on stuff. It's a great conspiracy related idea but I don't believe it is grounded in reality. I am the only RF taper I've met in person. I know several via the Internet - primarily one who shall not be named - is a lovely dude who knows his shit more than anyone. The dude is a Saint. But where are the others? I'm really curious how many other lone-wolf's are out there for RF taping? I don't want to trade with you, I don't want your recording (I have enough of my own to deal with), I just want to swap set ups and ideas. But I have yet to see a mafia militia of IEM tapers.

Taping, been doing this for 20 years. My first wireless was an ALD @ Red Hot Chili Peppers w/Queens of the Stone Age back in 2003. Since 2005 I've been focused pretty much exclusively on wireless. For fun, a couple samples for those that care or are interested. The Adele sample, I hit two nights in a row in Auburn Hills, MI. You hear the click track? That is her mix. It is to help keep her time. You cannot degrade the mix because the musician uses the metronome as it is to be used (I was quite far from the stage for these, like a football field+ length but they had a ton of transmitters for those shows. The Elbow show, Guy Garvey does not use metronome but good god what a great mix you know? Tool... they had two transmitters but only one person benefiting from it. Kind of a good standard for quality.

Lots of time, lots of practice, lots of money and lots of enjoyment. I realized 15 years ago that my taping flame would burn out if I didn't evolve. It hasn't and I did. My kids now come to shows with me and are 'in' with taping and understand what it is about.

Adele - recorded exterior
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wK81JZ0-UekL_iX3NdoWQP-ZvimE8QL_/view?usp=drive_web

Elbow - recorded exterior
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OVYUXu6Dz7XhQG8w9sB4c4WB5eFvPdHN/view?usp=drive_web

Tool - recorded stealth, inside
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tG65KNSEICQK-XAsZ9LJrYs122pZ8y8B/view?usp=drive_web
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 10:01:10 PM by Galen »
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Recorders:
Sony PCM-M1 (Oade Mod II) x 2, Sony PCM-M1 (stock) x 1
Casio DA-R100 (1991 model, only used when able to use DC)
Edirol R-09
Tascam DA-R40
Sony MD RZ700 (retired)
Sharp MD MT-180 (retired)

Microphones:
Nakamichi CM-300, omni (Stealth/non-mod, my father's originals from 1978)
DPA 4061 > MPS6030
Aiwa CM-30
Core Sound Binauarals
Soundman OKMII-R
Marantz EM-8
SEN G2/3
Shure P10R (470-698)
Icom RX7

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2018, 11:34:10 PM »
I do know a couple of them myself.  Most everything that has been shared with me does not have dropouts, click tracks, static or other artifacts.  This taper spends quite a bit of time in post production so his approach may be a bit different.  It may also be on some feeds and not others.  On a few cases I have run feeds for him but in all honesty, I prefer running audience recordings.  I agree there is a night and day difference in the sound between the two approaches and IMHO the best case a matrix of both sources mixed correctly.

U2 uses the metronome but it is not on all of the feeds.  I heard a few that were bootlegged out of Japan that have it and it was not an enjoyable listen.  The ones that my friend has done do not have that and have been recorded from both inside and outside the venue.  Over the years I have crossed paths with half a dozen tapers who run IEM's and they all know each other (and share gear).  Not all currently active at it, but a few still are.  I am curious where the primary one who shall not be named is located and whether he is one of the ones I know. 

Offline Galen

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2018, 12:21:16 AM »
I am guessing by your name, daspyknows, that folks you know are on the West Coast-ish of the USA. I also guess that we are both talking about the same person. I would bet a dozen cats on it. I've rapped with a few from that geographic area as well but that's about it other than some scanner peeps from across the States but I have yet to meet someone who does what a few people I have interacted with do as well as myself. Just curious. U2 has a whole bunch of feeds and maybe 50% of them have metronome - I only taped this band once back in 2011 so outdated info applies. You have the band (x4), the engineers (x2), guitar/vocal/bass/drum tech (x4 maybe more w/or w/o click) and maybe additional for a guest. Or you have a band like A Perfect Circle who have five people on stage and have like 12 mixes ok well kind of like U2 now that I write that.

I get why people say they want the ambience of an AUD recording to make it sound 'whole' but on the other hand every person that has said that is an AUD recording taper. Personally, I massively prefer the isolation of a live IEM/RF recording... like listening to a Westwood One radio broadcast back in the day. Only better, because you pulled it.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 12:40:08 AM by Galen »
http://www.collectiveunconscious.org/

Recorders:
Sony PCM-M1 (Oade Mod II) x 2, Sony PCM-M1 (stock) x 1
Casio DA-R100 (1991 model, only used when able to use DC)
Edirol R-09
Tascam DA-R40
Sony MD RZ700 (retired)
Sharp MD MT-180 (retired)

Microphones:
Nakamichi CM-300, omni (Stealth/non-mod, my father's originals from 1978)
DPA 4061 > MPS6030
Aiwa CM-30
Core Sound Binauarals
Soundman OKMII-R
Marantz EM-8
SEN G2/3
Shure P10R (470-698)
Icom RX7

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2018, 12:53:35 AM »
I am guessing by your name, daspyknows, that folks you know are on the West Coast-ish of the USA. I also guess that we are both talking about the same person. I would bet a dozen cats on it. I've rapped with a few from that geographic area as well but that's about it other than some scanner peeps from across the States but I have yet to meet someone who does what a few people I have interacted with do as well as myself. Just curious. U2 has a whole bunch of feeds and maybe 50% of them have metronome - I only taped this band once back in 2011 so outdated info applies. You have the band (x4), the engineers (x2), guitar/vocal/bass/drum tech (x4 maybe more w/or w/o click) and maybe additional for a guest. Or you have a band like A Perfect Circle who have five people on stage and have like 12 mixes ok well kind of like U2 now that I write that.

I get why people say they want the ambience of an AUD recording to make it sound 'whole' but on the other hand every person that has said that is an AUD recording taper. Personally, I massively prefer the isolation of a live IEM/RF recording... like listening to a Westwood One radio broadcast back in the day. Only better, because you pulled it.

I figured we were referring to the same person.  He is busy tonight.  He also wants the audience feed to mix in btw and is not an audience taper.  Funny you bring up Westwood One radio broadcasts.  The pre-broadcast recordings of those are really nice.   Been listening to a bunch of those recently. 


Offline furburger

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2018, 04:39:59 AM »
If you get caught inside a venue taping with an audience rig or IEM packs, you will be brought to security, questioned by police and if you are lucky, escorted out of the building. Your gear is a crap shoot.  ***You might get it back, might not. ***


re: gear

***UNLESS YOU ARE A FOOL***, this is 100% incorrect.

they can keep your media and/or batteries (disposable), anything else would fall under "theft".


and if over $500 in value, in most states, felony theft.






shame on those who spread misinformation.

So a small time weed grower is giving a senior level attorney legal advice.   :banging head: 

My advice would be to take legal advice from someone who is really a lawyer and not someone who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and thinks he is a lawyer.

ooooh, a "senior legal attorney"....in which field does this individal specialize?

like, a "senior divorce attorney", or a "senior environmental attorney", or a "senior malpractice attorney" ain't gonna know two shits about what I *know* I'm talking about (or, when you've taped in 40 of the 50 states, you're a little more aware of your surroundings and laws, like radar detectors being illegal in VA, etc...)

not to mention lawyers usually lie when they open their mouth, and they drill holes in their coffins so the worms can crawl out.

I *know* it bums you out that I'm not only intelligent, but correct as well, so get over yourself already


misdemeanor theft: under $500

felony theft: over $500


I grew up around lawyers, bankers, doctors and dentists in duck camp, fish camp and moose camp....from age 6 on.

a much more rounded education than I'm sure you had.

or yeah, I had an actual dad who spent time with me vs. someone like you who had to send your kid off to wilderness camp to "straighten him out".


or, the opinion of a 'father of the year' such as yourself really means nothing.


again, ***the police nor the venue can seize anything of value that belongs to you***, unless it's of the weaponized variety (to use as evidence), which is an entirely different talk show. (or, nothing to do with taping gear)

ferfucksake
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Offline furburger

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2018, 04:44:22 AM »

I've seen this myth pop up quite a bit in discussion regarding IEM tapers. That there is a click. That there are several people who ship equipment to one another from this city to another. This, I will say, has happened and I have been on the receiving end of this a few times. But I am not involved in any sort of group. I am sure that people do this, for sure, but is that the norm? What is the norm? Beats me. I do not think that there is a secret society of IEM tapers who keep lock and stock on stuff.


you're not the "3rd initial-less" person in the 'circle', yes, they DO exist, to the tune that they don't even have their own board/server to share the stuff, but instead the mail the 0's and 1's with the boxes.

I've seen the lists. and the wireless boxes. the two I mentioned, one lives in Calfornia, the other near DC.  met them both, more than once.

the clique is real, but really, who the fuck wants a bunch of "awesome sounding Def Leppard and U2" anyways? (or Prince and Springsteen, another 2 'big' artists collected by them)

certain Prince shows I could find interesting, but the other three....?


#notme
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Offline furburger

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2018, 04:46:15 AM »
  Get out of the venue ASAP with your gear intact...you've only lost a recording and the price of the ticket.  Your gear isn't worth the risk of STUPIDLY claiming to a cop or security that they're committing a felony by taking your gear.

Jesus fucking Christ, how dense can one be?


NO, you don't "cause a scene" at the venue at all.

you merely say "before you walk off with that gear, I'd like you to speak to my attorney"


or do you folks panic at the instant?
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Offline furburger

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2018, 04:48:58 AM »

I have a bunch from a few unnamed IEM tapers.  I would only share what they have released into the wild themselves.  I have also sat in a car with one of the IEM tapers listening to the show live on the car stereo.  It was a show I wasn't planning on attending and was more of a social visit.  Any comment about dropouts and stuff is utter BS.  If you are running the right gear and picking up multiple channels with the right frequencies and know what you are doing in post production the results are quite spectacular.  Only thing missing is a clean audience source to provide and ambient sound to the final product. 

As with audience tapers there are those that do it right and those that fluff their garbage.  Some of the "bootleg" releases on Dime are crap, with click tracks and other artifacts.   Those who do it right don't have to tell everyone how great their recordings sound.

um, all IEM's have the click track.

now if these folks are tapping into the ALD's...that's an entirely different (sans click-track) talk show.

not that I'd expect a faux-taper like you to know the difference.
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Offline jagraham

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2018, 02:00:58 PM »
As far as having gear confiscated in a venue goes, it seems like it would be pretty simple to avoid regardless of your rights and security's rights. I'm simply leaving before I'm being led into any private/closed area of any venue. "Oh, didn't know this wasn't allowed, I'll go ahead and leave". Not sure there's really much they can do to you if you go this route. They will have to forcibly detain me in front of other patrons if they must take my equipment.
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2018, 03:25:07 PM »
Isn't the trick to offer security and the cops crappy Alaskan cabbage?  They will surely let you go.

Offline rigpimp

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2018, 04:32:03 PM »
not that I'd expect a faux-taper like you to know the difference.

DNFTT

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Offline Galen

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2018, 01:31:01 AM »
Just going to toss this in here: there is not a secret IEM 'clique' of people who have a current pulse on everything or quasi-current. That is a misinformed or aligned perception of reality. Yes, absolutely, there are people who talk to one another and record shows in certain manners and, yes, some of them may have or do on occasion share equipment. All that sounds more like friends interacting over a hobby. Have yet to see evidence of such an idea turn to reality. My point on that aspect is that if there are people who are reliant on others gear then this aspect of the hobby is not for them as it is, notably, somewhat cost conscious at best.

If a clique involves only U2 and Def Leppard fans... well, honestly, I really do like both those bands. I saw Def Leppard back in 1996 in Charlevoix, MI in fact I worked that show cooking hot dogs. Got to watch the majority of the show as the grill closed early. Was very very cool. Tripping Daisy opened. Didn't tape but Tim DeLaughter signed my TDaisy tee shirt.

Further, furburger, your statement that all IEM's have click track is 100% incorrect. I can provide factual evidence time and time again based from recording I made which dispute your assertion. Zero shade, 100% accurate information.

This thread was intended, intended, to be something that was of interest to those that had interest in this specific subject area. Would be really cool if we could jump back to the time a few days ago when that was a possibility. Thank you.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 01:40:05 AM by Galen »
http://www.collectiveunconscious.org/

Recorders:
Sony PCM-M1 (Oade Mod II) x 2, Sony PCM-M1 (stock) x 1
Casio DA-R100 (1991 model, only used when able to use DC)
Edirol R-09
Tascam DA-R40
Sony MD RZ700 (retired)
Sharp MD MT-180 (retired)

Microphones:
Nakamichi CM-300, omni (Stealth/non-mod, my father's originals from 1978)
DPA 4061 > MPS6030
Aiwa CM-30
Core Sound Binauarals
Soundman OKMII-R
Marantz EM-8
SEN G2/3
Shure P10R (470-698)
Icom RX7

Offline furburger

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2018, 03:50:27 AM »
Isn't the trick to offer security and the cops crappy Alaskan cabbage?  They will surely let you go.


no, that's to make people like you stfu at the show.

the best was a Pub Crawl in my early 20's in Hawaii when I went to the Pro Bowl ('94)....these college prep doofuses would sell you this "spaghetti dinner and a bus to 5 bars" thing on the sidewalk, and show you group photos of 80 hotties and 20 dudes...of course, when you got there to the first bar where dinner was, it was 80 dudes and 20 chicks.

anyhow, just like a lot of you folks  here, they were all "oh, we smoke Hawaiian, your Alaskan ain't shit". (oh, we have spendy mics, so your recordings ain't shit)


longer story short, I sent 4 of the 6 of them home puking less than 2 hours later, ***because they couldn't handle it.***


you could learn from this maybe.....then again, nah, probably not.
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Offline furburger

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Re: Legality of Taping - AUD & RF/IEM
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2018, 03:51:33 AM »
Just going to toss this in here: there is not a secret IEM 'clique' of people who have a current pulse on everything or quasi-current. That is a misinformed or aligned perception of reality. Yes, absolutely, there are people who talk to one another and record shows in certain manners and, yes, some of them may have or do on occasion share equipment. All that sounds more like friends interacting over a hobby. Have yet to see evidence of such an idea turn to reality. My point on that aspect is that if there are people who are reliant on others gear then this aspect of the hobby is not for them as it is, notably, somewhat cost conscious at best.

If a clique involves only U2 and Def Leppard fans... well, honestly, I really do like both those bands. I saw Def Leppard back in 1996 in Charlevoix, MI in fact I worked that show cooking hot dogs. Got to watch the majority of the show as the grill closed early. Was very very cool. Tripping Daisy opened. Didn't tape but Tim DeLaughter signed my TDaisy tee shirt.

Further, furburger, your statement that all IEM's have click track is 100% incorrect. I can provide factual evidence time and time again based from recording I made which dispute your assertion. Zero shade, 100% accurate information.

This thread was intended, intended, to be something that was of interest to those that had interest in this specific subject area. Would be really cool if we could jump back to the time a few days ago when that was a possibility. Thank you.
-------------
people who are fans of the music, they LOVE what I document and capture...people who are fans of themselves....not so much.

 

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