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Author Topic: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones  (Read 7028 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2018, 09:16:14 AM »
That biting aluminum foil simile is so apt.  Such an excellent descriptive!

Thanks and best to you.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline if_then_else

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2018, 03:09:19 PM »
Mine are appropriate for the miniature 4060 (5.4 mm dia) omnis I made and use them for, but I'd suggest either whichever Neumann/Schoeps/DPA spheres fit the Senns, or Shapeways 3D printed spheres made specifically to fit them.  The 3D printed stuff was not an option when I worked up the DIY Nerf hard-foam ball spheres or I would have explored that route. 

With the 3D printed option, I'd keep an eye/ear out for resonance of the plastic and any empty internal space within the sphere.  If that seems suspect, you might want to fill any internal void with something.

Got my Shapeways 3D printed spheres for the MKH-8020's today. In fact there is some empty internal space within the sphere - apart from the 3-D printed fins ("grasping mechanism") on the inside.
Other than this, build quality appears to be pretty solid.

Tempted to try them out in the field, although my next open recording opportunity (next Sunday) will be on-stage - and the spheres are meant to be used further back in the room.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2018, 03:46:30 PM »
They look nice.  How do they fit?

[snip] the spheres are meant to be used further back in the room.

The spheres help from further back by increasing on-axis sensitivity in the upper presence range versus the off-axis response, and are appropriate anywhere that attribute is desirable.  It's more about that on-axis/off-axis difference than the difference in overall integrated frequency response, which can useful but can be EQ compensated for just like compensating MK3 response to that of MK2 or vice versa.  The on/axis off/axis difference cannot be EQ compensated for afterwards.

Consider that the original Neumann M50 (and later models) upon which all these spherical attachments are descendants is primarily used for main microphones positioned over the orchestra conductor's head- a position not significantly more distant than a stage-lip taper position in some cases.  The acoustic situation is different however, with an unamplified band (orchestra) in a large hall and good sounding, relatively long-decay reverberation time.

With all that in mind, the main difference you are likely to hear with and without the spheres after optimally adjusting EQ of both for good direct-sound from the band, is the difference in timbre of those sound components which are not arriving directly on-axis - the room reverberation, audience reaction, and perhaps off-axis PA bleed.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline if_then_else

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2018, 03:26:32 PM »
They look nice.  How do they fit?

Sorry for not replying earlier. The mics were still at my flat while the spheres were delivered to my house.

They fit really well. It took me a while to figure out that you must screw in the mics clockwise (because of the internal grasping mechanism).
This might lead to cosmetic issues in the long run if the labeling isn't abrasion-proof. (Not an issue with these Sennheisers.)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2018, 09:28:54 AM »
Fit appears appropriately flush at the grid/sphere interface. 

Please post your thoughts and impressions once you get the opportunity to use them a few times.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline JimmieC

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2018, 10:53:54 AM »
I like the idea of these spheres or port covers to alter your microphones.  I see they are using these spheres on omni microphones.  I understand they modification of your microphone's on-axis and off-axis frequency responses and direction-to-reverberation ratio.  Can I ask 3 stupid questions that might have already been answered but did see it.  Does it make an omni into a cardioid (or preferably a hyper / super cardioid) pattern?  Can they be used on cardioid mics?  Can port covers make a cardioid into a super cardioid with out buying a new set of capsules? 

In realtime, I wish I could bump the mids and just a slight in the high end but can't do anything about the direction-to-reverberation ratio without doing MS or maybe some spheres / port covers.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2018, 11:19:51 AM »
The sphere attachments only work with pressure-omnis.  They are not a "port covers" and do not work with any pressure-differential mode microphones which incorporate rear/side vents.  They do not apply to cardioids, supercards, figure-8's, or electronically-switchable-pattern microphones.  Best to think of them as emphasising the slight inherent directionality most omnis already have at high frequencies.

It will not turn an omni into a cardioid or supercardioid as such, but does push the pattern toward something cardioid/supercardioid shaped at high frequencies only.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 11:23:56 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2018, 01:23:56 PM »
Fit appears appropriately flush at the grid/sphere interface. 

Please post your thoughts and impressions once you get the opportunity to use them a few times.

I'm going to open tape Part Chimp next Sunday. But, honestly, I have some serious doubts that you'd notice
such subtle differences at their deafening volume. I'll try out the spheres anyway and will let you know how it went.

I'd love to run them at a singer-songwriter / "dark folk" show in France in November but haven't heard back from the artist yet.


Offline wlp

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2018, 05:07:05 PM »
The Shapeway spheres came a few days ago and, after a little adjustment (sandpaper), they fit the 8020's snug without marring the finish.


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2018, 05:50:24 PM »
^ Not flush enough. Push the ball less far onto the microphone, such that only the mesh grid sticks out past the front of the ball, and not the solid portion of the microphone body.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Comparison samples- 60cm spaced omnis with and without sphere attachments
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2018, 03:49:20 PM »
I recently came across a website specializing in classical recording, which has generously made available various comparative sample recordings for download.  The methodology seems well-controlled, making these comparisons useful for us.

   The Research on Classical Music Recording - for the future of music production and recording
   Nagoya University of the Arts, Kazuya Nagae
   http://kazuyanagae.com/


Of the various comparisons linked there, one is of pairs of 60cm spaced DPA 4006 omnis with and without the DPA 50mm diameter APE sphere attachments installed. Listen for yourself and hear the somewhat subtle but certainly audible effect imparted by the spheres here-
http://kazuyanagae.com/20110930windorch/index.html


Also hear the comparison of 30cm, 60cm, and 100cm omni spacing without the sphere attachments-
http://kazuyanagae.com/20110420orch/index.html

I've yet to explore the other comparisons.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2019, 09:41:44 AM »
Apologies if this has been discussed in another thread. I've searched but haven't come across anything dedicated to stereo techniques with the MK41.

(As an aside, my application is nature recording (bird species), spot-ambience, effects, et al. I typically record ecological soundscapes and have used the MK2 in AB for this application to good effect. I need something with more reach and focus; something mobile which I may run handheld to capture a single bird call/song, street corners, fountains and all other sorts of sounds.)

I know the MK41 does very well in MS with the MK8, but I wonder if there might be suitable stereo configurations with two MK41s.

Does it work in ORTF? NOS? DIN? Something else?

Circling back to the original post above inquiring about appropriate configurations for a stereo pair of MK41 supercardioids, this link is to the Improved PAS technique thread- https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.msg2087409#msg2087409 (Improved PAS setups - better imaging & higher direct/reverberant-sound ratio)

The tables in the first post there suggests the appropriate spacing between a pair of microphones given the angle between them, in the special case where the two microphones are pointed directly at what the recordist wishes to be the outer edges of the reproduced stereo image.  The first simple table covers a pair of cardioid pattern microphones only.  The second larger table extends to patterns other than cardioid as well.  To use the second table for a pair of MK41, first determine the appropriate angle between microphones by aming each at either side of the "sound stage" you wish to reproduce between the speakers (angling them less widely to focus more narrowly, and vice-versa), then determining the appropriate spacing to use between the two microphones by finding that angle in the first column and following the row over to the supercardioid column where the spacing between microphones is indicated.

This Point At Stacks microphone technique is intended to simplify setup while maximizing pickup of direct sound as much as possible from a given recording location.  Although primarily intended for PA taping, it should also help in clearly capturing a particular source of interest while retaining good stereo reproduction width for the type of recording you describe.  The total range of the various angle/spacing combinations covered by the table includes and extends beyond the standard near-spaced conventions of ORTF, NOS, DIN, etc.

Hope this helps.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline noahbickart

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Offline kuba e

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Re: Stereo Technique with MK41 or other super-cardioid Microphones
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2019, 11:29:16 AM »
Noah, thanks for recordings.

I recently came across a website specializing in classical recording, which has generously made available various comparative sample recordings for download.  The methodology seems well-controlled, making these comparisons useful for us.

   The Research on Classical Music Recording - for the future of music production and recording
   Nagoya University of the Arts, Kazuya Nagae
   http://kazuyanagae.com/


Of the various comparisons linked there, one is of pairs of 60cm spaced DPA 4006 omnis with and without the DPA 50mm diameter APE sphere attachments installed. Listen for yourself and hear the somewhat subtle but certainly audible effect imparted by the spheres here-
http://kazuyanagae.com/20110930windorch/index.html


Also hear the comparison of 30cm, 60cm, and 100cm omni spacing without the sphere attachments-
http://kazuyanagae.com/20110420orch/index.html

I've yet to explore the other comparisons.

Gutbucket, thanks too. There are great material to listen for comparison. With and without APE sphere and differently spaced omni recordings are very interesting.

 

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