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Author Topic: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help  (Read 1513 times)

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Offline NewTaper

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Sorry if this should be in classifieds?

I will PayPal in advance anyone who can put together a video that shows exactly how to time align to audio tracks in Adobe Audition due to digital drift.
Soundboard and Audience mix or two audience tapes etc.
I have read a few tutorials but I just can't get it. I am a visual learner so if I can see this done once I can do it and I am sure there are many who would benefit from a video like this!

Please Help.

Thanks,
NT
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 05:15:25 PM by NewTaper »

Offline morst

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Re: Who Wants to Make 25$ - Need Help
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 02:52:15 PM »
Sorry if this should be in classifieds?

I will PayPal anyone who can put together a video that shows exactly how to time align to audio tracks in Adobe Audition due to digital drift.
Soundboard and Audience mix or two audience tapes etc.
I have read a few tutorials but I just can't get it. I am a visual learner so if I can see this done once I can do it and I am sure there are many who would benefit from a video like this!
I have never used Audition, but the task you need is two alignment sync spots, one near the start and one near the end of the files. When you find these and mark them relative to the track you're not planning to change, you will also need to mark the start of the moved track at each point, so you can measure the difference (how far you moved it.)

After finding the points, I use a spreadsheet to calculate the math (stretch or squash to sync) to make them the same length for the overlapped section.

Once one has been adjusted in length, then simply slide it to match the other (reference) at the first sync point, then check to see if the math worked because the second point should be correct now as well

Then you can mix them.

Sorry it's not a video, but since I don't use Adobe anyhow, my Audacity movie might not help you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's about as short as I can describe my process. Hope it helps.
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Offline hoserama

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2018, 10:43:49 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOz2GUdL_vw&feature=youtu.be

I did this some years ago.

I can provide you with the excel sheet I wrote that does the math calculations.

About halfway through, you can hear my cats fighting in the background. I left that in for laughs.

Hope this helps!

Uses combination of AA 3.0 and AA-CC. When they rebuilt the engine in AA 5 and on, the new Time Stretch module just isn't as accurate as the time stretch in AA 3.0. So I do everything in AA-CC, and then do the actual stretch in AA 3.
Audio: AT943 + SBD feeds
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Offline justink

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2018, 11:19:55 AM »
download audacity and then follow Morst's instructions here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=103031.msg1373822#msg1373822

works like a charm.
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Offline morst

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2018, 02:23:24 PM »
download audacity and then follow Morst's instructions here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=103031.msg1373822#msg1373822

works like a charm.
I thought I posted my handy spreadsheet link on that thread so folks could enjoy it but I can't seem to find it.

Here is my spreadsheet for calculating the speed change:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pQGfYwPgBFFzcY5m6aRj-Zbu9HsRumLy-tJB1d8Eufg/edit#gid=583050244

If you can't use it live in a browser, just download it and use it at home.
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Offline hoserama

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2018, 03:52:02 PM »
I've found that doing really close alignment will need more than one point. If it's a fairly simple iem/ald/sbd and AUD, then you can probably get away with doing alignment markers every hour. Mixing multiple line sources reveal misalignments quickly, and you'll need to align every 10-15 minutes.
Audio: AT943 + SBD feeds
Antennas: Lots of those
Cables: Lots of those
Recorders: Cymatic Utrack24, Cymatic LR16, RME Multiface, (2) Tascam 680, (2) Tascam 2D, Zoom H6, Zoom H4n, and a graveyard of irivers/nomads/minidiscs.

Offline morst

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2018, 06:51:49 PM »
I've found that doing really close alignment will need more than one point. If it's a fairly simple iem/ald/sbd and AUD, then you can probably get away with doing alignment markers every hour. Mixing multiple line sources reveal misalignments quickly, and you'll need to align every 10-15 minutes.
I'm talking about stretching (or squashing) one source to match, rather than doing a cut-and-paste pastiche of parts of sources from different clocks.
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Offline hoserama

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2018, 06:58:42 PM »
Exactly what I'm talking about to. But digital clock speed don't run at the same speed. So even if you do a time stretch over a two hour period, and its aligned at beginning and end, it will be off a bit in the middle.
Audio: AT943 + SBD feeds
Antennas: Lots of those
Cables: Lots of those
Recorders: Cymatic Utrack24, Cymatic LR16, RME Multiface, (2) Tascam 680, (2) Tascam 2D, Zoom H6, Zoom H4n, and a graveyard of irivers/nomads/minidiscs.

Offline morst

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2018, 07:21:45 PM »
Exactly what I'm talking about to. But digital clock speed don't run at the same speed. So even if you do a time stretch over a two hour period, and its aligned at beginning and end, it will be off a bit in the middle.
It won't be off in the middle enough to hear, in my experience, unless you're missing samples or parts. But I'm not working with Nomad JB sources!?   :-P

If the difference between two sources is less than 10 ms (with the closest source such as the SBD happening first in case they aren't perfect), I find that it's not noticeable. 10 ms is 480 samples at 48kHz. In practice I don't mind fudging up to 20 ms but that's pushing it.

I guess if you were running from cold to warm environments and back, that could cause larger variations?

I don't think I'd be able to sync every song. There's not always a proper clean wave to match up. Besides, what if you match the bass guitar at the start of one song, then sync to a vocal noise at the end? They are not necessarily happening at the same times?!

I have now watched your video, and I see that you are syncing two sources which both have click tracks! That is something I've never encountered! And yet, you have enormous differences in percentages in your song-by-song spreadsheet. I can see from that evidence why you are drawing the conclusions you do, but I question the process. That variation is far too large. If you were to do it "my way" with one point near the start and one near the end, and then calculate the overall percent for the whole file set, you could at least use that as a baseline to compare each track percent to see if it's close!? You should have some higher and some lower if your math is right, and they're not all the same!
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2018, 08:18:28 PM »
Yeah, even if two clocks are running at different speeds from each other, they'll each be internally consistent, no?

I've never had any problems just setting two points as far apart as reasonably possible and then deriving a single ratio from that. But, obviously, YMMV.

Offline morst

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2018, 08:26:24 PM »
Yeah, even if two clocks are running at different speeds from each other, they'll each be internally consistent, no?
A little bit of variance or error is to be expected, but one would hope that the jitter or drift of each clock from a theoretical perfect clock should be somewhat minimal!? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Offline hoserama

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2018, 08:43:27 PM »
The audio in the video clip is a U2 IEM recording, which explains the click. It's even the same feed, although different receiver types. Both are to two independent nomad jb3 (long since retired recorders!), which generally had a pretty good time clock from what I found.

When you're working with line recordings (like IEMs), you hear alignment issues much quicker than with audience recordings. I can hear when things are off by a couple samples. That hollow tunnel sound on vocals is unmistakable.

I have found that the internal clocks on decks are NOT consistent, and there is a slight curve. So if you align something from
00:00:00 - 00:30:00 - 99.999975%
00:30:00 - 01:00:00 - 99.999832%
01:00:00 - 01:30:00 - 99.999712%

I'm making up numbers but there is a change in the alignment. Now I don't know any time alignment program that can calculate the derivative, and make a proper alignment based on that. However, next best thing was to do it in intervals.

But like I said--audience recording mixing is much more forgiving. I typically align audience recordings on an hour basis, whereas much more closely on multiple line (iem/ald/sbd) recordings).

In any case, I get the $25 from the OP for providing a video :)
Audio: AT943 + SBD feeds
Antennas: Lots of those
Cables: Lots of those
Recorders: Cymatic Utrack24, Cymatic LR16, RME Multiface, (2) Tascam 680, (2) Tascam 2D, Zoom H6, Zoom H4n, and a graveyard of irivers/nomads/minidiscs.

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2018, 09:36:28 PM »

I have found that the internal clocks on decks are NOT consistent, and there is a slight curve. So if you align something from
00:00:00 - 00:30:00 - 99.999975%
00:30:00 - 01:00:00 - 99.999832%
01:00:00 - 01:30:00 - 99.999712%


That is bizarre and fascinating. Which decks have you noticed this with?

Offline hoserama

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2018, 09:53:27 PM »
All, once you get precise enough.
Audio: AT943 + SBD feeds
Antennas: Lots of those
Cables: Lots of those
Recorders: Cymatic Utrack24, Cymatic LR16, RME Multiface, (2) Tascam 680, (2) Tascam 2D, Zoom H6, Zoom H4n, and a graveyard of irivers/nomads/minidiscs.

Offline NewTaper

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Re: Who Wants to Make $25...... OK Now $50 Seriously - Need Help
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2018, 01:40:35 PM »
Thank you to everyone for their help. I look forward to trying this out this weekend.

Thanks,NT

 

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