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Author Topic: Shock Collars  (Read 1134 times)

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Offline jmitchell

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Shock Collars
« on: June 30, 2018, 10:45:06 PM »
Is it possible for a dog with a shock collar to cause a channel to spike?  I've been at a festival this weekend and dogs have free reign.  It seems that when one of the dogs with a shock collar comes by my levels in one channel act all weird.  Listening through monitors it seems like it almost mutes the channel.  This is the second night it's happened.

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2018, 11:38:48 PM »
I don't know for sure how those horrible-seeming devices work--but even if the dog's side of the system is meant to be only a receiver, then if that receiver circuit works anything like a regular AM or FM radio receiver, it almost certainly radiates some amount of RF energy as the received signal is converted to an intermediate frequency (traditionally just above 10 MHz). And since the designs of nearly all consumer electronic devices in the past 20 years or so have been penny-pinched to infinity and beyond--and since the modern FCC believes in trusting the free market to enforce standards--you can pretty well bet that the manufacturer doesn't give a rat's patootie about what problems their equipment may be causing your equipment (or anyone else's but their own).

So yes, it's plausible that the collar could interfere with many types of audio equipment, not just microphones. But microphone signals are at lower voltage levels than many other audio signals, so they're inherently more vulnerable. And the capsule end of a microphone amplifier operates at very, very high impedance, so stray coupling can be fiendishly hard to prevent.

The RF spectrum has gotten much, much busier in the past 20 years. Most audio equipment designed before that time, or newer equipment that imitates older designs, simply can't cope. Back in the day the concern was mainly about cable shielding. which definitely helps to keep AM broadcasts out. But with the increasing use of higher frequency carriers and the use of very aggressive digital modulation of those carriers, PLUS the increasing likelihood of very close proximity between an RF source and audio equipment is relatively new; in the past, transmitters (or RF leakage sources) didn't typically move around in the middle of public gatherings, walk across your cables, or stop and sniff at them.

Engineers of past generations mostly weren't trained in the area of "EMC" ("electromagnetic compatibility") at all; most audio design textbooks until recently didn't deal with the issue. And technical managers and marketing executives need to care about EMC enough to spend real money and time on it, but many do not--in part because they're generally older and less exposed to present realities, and in part because the realities they care about the most are on the corporate balance sheet, and they really want to save that last handful of cents of profit per unit sold.

All of which adds up to, I don't know, but certainly maybe.

--best regards and I'll stop now.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 11:43:40 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline jmitchell

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2018, 01:13:31 AM »
What can I do to prevent that?  I'm pretty sure that those sets are not going to be toast.

Thanks for all the info, interesting and frustrating. 
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obsidian

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2018, 08:27:23 PM »
Just curious if using these would help.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016XE2BS0

Offline heathen

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2018, 11:19:38 PM »
One possibility would be taking the shock collar off the dog and putting it on the owner.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2018, 08:08:58 AM »
We have one of these setups for our dog from one of the big national brands.  I tried it out on my arm before I put it on our girl.  I can assure it's not a bad "shock" as you might have heard; more like the feeling of a TENS unit if you've ever used one of those for muscle issues.  Anyone that rails against these systems as inhumane probably has no firsthand experience with them. 

What makes this system really work well is the included training sessions.  Because of the training, your pet learns where the boundaries are as though there were a physical fence, and eventually they do not try to cross them.  Now, my dog is more obedient than most, but we have all manner of critters coming in and out of our back yard that she will chase, but she will not cross over her boundary when they go out of range.  She doesn't want the electric zap obviously, but really it's the training.  We've had the system about a year, and I don't think she's gotten a zap in over 6 months.

I haven't experienced any RF issues with the collar.  I record myself playing piano at home, and my dog will often curl up next to me while playing, within 3-6 ft of my mics and recorder.  I've never had any glitches.  I know that the buried loop puts out a digital radio signal, so if there was interference I'd expect it to sound like rapid pulses, like one hears with GSM phone interference.  Sending out enough interference to completely drop out a signal from a balanced mic connection would certainly be an amount violating FCC regulations, I would think.
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2018, 12:31:29 PM »
Sorry to veer from the OP but I had something odd happen at David Byrne. One track has the effect the OP describes, spikes and mutes one channel. Byrne had tons of wireless feeds from instruments going, could hat have caused some interference?
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obsidian

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2018, 04:09:25 PM »
Just curious if using these would help.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016XE2BS0

I have these on all my mic cables ... as I asked before, any chance these could help?

Offline DSatz

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2018, 06:15:08 AM »
Any chance? Yes, certainly there's a chance.

But only a chance. We're all still guessing along with you as to where and how the RF is getting into the equipment.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

obsidian

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2018, 08:57:53 AM »
Any chance? Yes, certainly there's a chance.

But only a chance. We're all still guessing along with you as to where and how the RF is getting into the equipment.

--best regards

That's true  ;D

I just thought that the suggestion was lost due to the animal rights debate and I wanted to try to help out a fellow taper. Lol.

Offline jmitchell

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2018, 09:35:00 AM »
Would it help if I posted a sample?
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obsidian

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2018, 10:45:06 AM »
Would it help if I posted a sample?

I would be interested in hearing a sample of the interference.

Offline jmitchell

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2018, 11:04:36 AM »
Two samples

MixPre-167.sample_1_2_01 - Tfunk TK60 > MP6
MixPre-167.sample_3_4_01 - Tfunk TK62 > MP6

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fSM2q2aGwxd_duFbR1DvmV6zfhQ5dWGy
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Online Gordon

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2018, 01:25:47 PM »
Two samples

MixPre-167.sample_1_2_01 - Tfunk TK60 > MP6
MixPre-167.sample_3_4_01 - Tfunk TK62 > MP6

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fSM2q2aGwxd_duFbR1DvmV6zfhQ5dWGy

Those are some odd looking waveforms!  even when it's not spiking it does not match the other channel.
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obsidian

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Re: Shock Collars
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2018, 04:49:53 PM »
That is some craziness going on there. If anyone wants to "see" here's what they look like ...

 

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