Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording  (Read 2556 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cmstewart

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2018, 03:28:02 AM »
One issue I'm having (which I kind of anticipated) is I recorded in 24/48.... and I did extensive peak editing to avoid any clipping in all 150 minutes of the show. When I export and dither the full project from 32-bit float to 24/48, everything comes out perfect and clean. But when I export/dither the entire project to 16-bit, 44.1 it comes out with a ton of tiny instances of clipping. REALLY pisses me off since i took days of work to avoid any of that.

But if I take the already-exported 24/48 WAV file that's clean and re-import it, and then export it again as 16/44.1 it comes out (almost) clean. I know that means I'm dithering it twice, but I seriously hate the thought of having to re-edit everything to get the 16-bit one clean as well. Maybe I'm being perfectionistic, since the clipping is clearly just barely touching the line. But idk. Have you ever run into an issue like that? Would it be a bad idea to just use the converted 24/48 WAV file over the full project 16/44.1 exported file?

Hope all that made sense.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 03:30:29 AM by cmstewart »

Offline morst

  • Archivist: Camper Van Beethoven & Cracker
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2815
  • Get in touch if you wanna record Cracker or CVB!
    • Soundscape Preservation Society
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2018, 05:42:52 PM »
Would it be a bad idea to just use the converted 24/48 WAV file over the full project 16/44.1 exported file?


When I record at 24/48, I release at 24/48. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Teams: Neumann, Bay Area Tapers, Multitrack, Pioneertown Tapers, Mac Geeks, Cassette Masters, Poster Collectors, Alumni of teams St Louis, Upper Midwest & Milwaukee / Southern Wisco

Offline cmstewart

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2018, 06:45:28 PM »
Would it be a bad idea to just use the converted 24/48 WAV file over the full project 16/44.1 exported file?


When I record at 24/48, I release at 24/48. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well, I was thinking of releasing both. As a courtesy to Crows fans, I know many still listen by burning to CDs. And I probably will do the same when my car gets outta the shop.

Offline morst

  • Archivist: Camper Van Beethoven & Cracker
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2815
  • Get in touch if you wanna record Cracker or CVB!
    • Soundscape Preservation Society
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2018, 03:21:09 AM »
Well, I was thinking of releasing both. As a courtesy to Crows fans, I know many still listen by burning to CDs. And I probably will do the same when my car gets outta the shop.
That's very nice of you. I figure that most CD burning software can do it from 24/48 files, but I know there is some legacy stuff that won't. It was not so long ago that I was the one asking TaperJoe for 16-bit files suitable for burning!??! Now the shoe is on the other hand.  ???

Teams: Neumann, Bay Area Tapers, Multitrack, Pioneertown Tapers, Mac Geeks, Cassette Masters, Poster Collectors, Alumni of teams St Louis, Upper Midwest & Milwaukee / Southern Wisco

Offline cmstewart

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2018, 08:34:22 PM »
I've actually never burned 24-bit to a CD honestly. I guess it's cause so much of my stuff is normal 16-bit FLAC. Not sure why but everything seems to end up floating around in that format, so I'm just putting it out there for whoever wants it.

I've kinda solved my issue, as best I can. Should finish it up soon.

Offline cmstewart

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2018, 11:02:18 AM »
To finish up this thread I just have one final question (the last step in this whole process I assume). Before I ask I just want to thank EVERYONE on here that helped me navigate this process to make this recording possible.

So, now that I have both a 16-bit and 24 bit version of the show, where so you recommend I share it? I know CC isn't approved for archive.org. Would it be cool to share it on here with you guys? I assume other Crows fans here would want to hear it... and I'd love to hear feedback from y'all !!  :bigsmile:

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 9135
  • Gender: Male
  • I dream in beige.
    • sloppy.art.ink
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2018, 12:04:42 PM »
If they are open to taping I'd share on etree (bt.etree.org).

If not I usually upload "not taping friendly" bands to either The Traders Den or Dime A Dozen.

I've also been archiving my recordings by:

1. Uploading a zip file of the MP3's to mega.co.nz (I do this for the technically impaired that don't know what FLAC's are and don't know how to torrent).
2. Uploading the full show audio to YouTube by creating a "video" with the finished audio with either a scan of the ticket stub or photo as the "video" part.

-24      -12              -6             0       OVER
||||||||||||||||||||||||||| []  
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| []

||| MICS:  Beyer CK930 ~ Nevaton MCE400 ~ Countryman B3 |||
||| CABLES: Kind Kables |||
||| PREAMPS: Naiant Tinybox | Naiant Littlebox | Naiant IPA | Church BB |||
||| DECKS: Sound Devices MixPre6 | Sony M10 |||
||| PLAYBACK: Outlaw Audio RR2150 > Epos ELS8 |||
||| PHOTO: Sony a6000 | Sony 16-50 | Sony 55-210 | Rokinon 14mm | Rokinon 8mm |||
|||Concert History || LMA Recordings || Live YouTube Channel ||

Offline cmstewart

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2018, 06:52:14 PM »
If they are open to taping I'd share on etree (bt.etree.org).

If not I usually upload "not taping friendly" bands to either The Traders Den or Dime A Dozen.

I've also been archiving my recordings by:

1. Uploading a zip file of the MP3's to mega.co.nz (I do this for the technically impaired that don't know what FLAC's are and don't know how to torrent).
2. Uploading the full show audio to YouTube by creating a "video" with the finished audio with either a scan of the ticket stub or photo as the "video" part.

Thanks man! I'm pretty sure etree is for torrents right? I do have a step-by-step guide to making torrents from a thread on here, so it'll be my first but I can give that a shot. Counting Crows are/have been for years a taping-friendly band. Their official policy allows both audio/video recording at all their shows.

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12607
  • Gender: Male
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2018, 02:54:36 PM »
One issue I'm having (which I kind of anticipated) is I recorded in 24/48.... and I did extensive peak editing to avoid any clipping in all 150 minutes of the show. When I export and dither the full project from 32-bit float to 24/48, everything comes out perfect and clean. But when I export/dither the entire project to 16-bit, 44.1 it comes out with a ton of tiny instances of clipping. REALLY pisses me off since i took days of work to avoid any of that.

But if I take the already-exported 24/48 WAV file that's clean and re-import it, and then export it again as 16/44.1 it comes out (almost) clean. I know that means I'm dithering it twice, but I seriously hate the thought of having to re-edit everything to get the 16-bit one clean as well. Maybe I'm being perfectionistic, since the clipping is clearly just barely touching the line. But idk. Have you ever run into an issue like that? Would it be a bad idea to just use the converted 24/48 WAV file over the full project 16/44.1 exported file?

The part in bold shouldn't be a problem.  Odd that you got clipping upon direct export of the 16 bit file though, as it's supposed to only chop off the least-significant bits (the quiet end of the spectrum, which should be nothing but random noise down there at the bottom), and not supposed to affect the most-significant bits (the loud stuff).

Dither affects only the least-significant bit above the target bit depth of the output file.  So the dither which was applied when converting from 32bit (the internal working bit depth of the editor) to 24 bit is thrown away along with the other 8 least-significant bits (bits 24 through 17, if counting downwards from 0dBfs) when further reducing the 24 bit file to 16 bits.


Folks like CDWave because it is super straightforward, quick and easy to use, and often more straightforward for tracking than doing so within the editor.  It can also be advantageous when producing both 16 and 24 bit file sets because you can export both from the editor as single files, do the initial tracking on one file set, save the cue-sheet with the split info, then apply that to the other fi. It automatically places the splits on CDR sector boundaries, so you needn't worry about having your 16 bit tracked files fully CD compatible.  In some other software you'll need to specify split on sector boundaries when tracking 16 bit files intended for CD burning.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline cmstewart

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2018, 11:05:40 PM »
The part in bold shouldn't be a problem.  Odd that you got clipping upon direct export of the 16 bit file though, as it's supposed to only chop off the least-significant bits (the quiet end of the spectrum, which should be nothing but random noise down there at the bottom), and not supposed to affect the most-significant bits (the loud stuff).

Dither affects only the least-significant bit above the target bit depth of the output file.  So the dither which was applied when converting from 32bit (the internal working bit depth of the editor) to 24 bit is thrown away along with the other 8 least-significant bits (bits 24 through 17, if counting downwards from 0dBfs) when further reducing the 24 bit file to 16 bits.


Folks like CDWave because it is super straightforward, quick and easy to use, and often more straightforward for tracking than doing so within the editor.  It can also be advantageous when producing both 16 and 24 bit file sets because you can export both from the editor as single files, do the initial tracking on one file set, save the cue-sheet with the split info, then apply that to the other fi. It automatically places the splits on CDR sector boundaries, so you needn't worry about having your 16 bit tracked files fully CD compatible.  In some other software you'll need to specify split on sector boundaries when tracking 16 bit files intended for CD burning.

Thanks for taking the time to help with that. I too am a bit baffled by the clipping after dithering problem. I just resolved it by editing a couple sections before exporting the 16-bit version.

I also had a similar problem when decided to cut off the first minute of the pre-show music, and then shifting the tracks back. When I exported it after moving them, they summed together a bit differently and a couple peaks suddenly were clipped. In audacity, it shows you with red vertical lines where the clipped bits. I just edited those bits again and export again, keeping it clean. But I can't quite explain it. I kind of just assumed that the dither (which I believe is a low-level noise of some kind used to mask the truncated frequencies) added some fraction of a decibel to those bits and thus pushed them over the edge. Not much mind you, but still it was showing as being clipped. Luckily after all the editing it worked out and sounds really good. Took some work but I feel it was well worth it.

I'd love hear some of your recordings using your omni-setup to hear the possible difference with those verses the condensers I used. Or maybe have you take a listen to mine and tell me what I should possibly tweak or try, or if things sound pretty good as is. Sometimes listening helps more than just talking about it.

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12607
  • Gender: Male
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2018, 12:13:42 PM »
I also had a similar problem when decided to cut off the first minute of the pre-show music, and then shifting the tracks back. When I exported it after moving them, they summed together a bit differently and a couple peaks suddenly were clipped.

That seems to me like you are summing multiple channels and may have cut a slightly different length from the start of each in making the shift.  Not enough that you would visually notice a shift or such that they sound obviously misaligned afterward, but just enough that some high momentary peaks sum differently.  This can happen depending on how you specify making selections and cuts, which is somewhat different for each editor.  For example, if you have, select between zero-crossings (or the equivalent) specified in your editor, the cuts to each separate object are made at whatever zero-crossings are closest to the edit points you specify, which is likely to differ by a few samples for each object.  If you then shift both cut objects in time to the beginning of the time-line such that both align with the zero-point of the timeline, they will be misaligned by the same amount.

Not saying that's definitely the case, just outlining one potential way it could have occured.  And to be clear- specifying select on zero crossings is often what you want when a cut occurs within the piece without a fade, as it will eliminate a potential click at the edit point.

An easy way to avoid that is to trim the heads and tails (the unwanted pre-show and after-show portions) prior to alignment and editing, or to simply leave them there and start your tracking not from the very start of the raw audio file trimmed to length, but from wherever you want the initial fade-in for track 1 to occur.  Otherwise you need to be careful in how you select, cut, and move the objects to keep them aligned with each other.

Quote
In audacity, it shows you with red vertical lines where the clipped bits. I just edited those bits again and export again, keeping it clean. But I can't quite explain it. I kind of just assumed that the dither (which I believe is a low-level noise of some kind used to mask the truncated frequencies) added some fraction of a decibel to those bits and thus pushed them over the edge. Not much mind you, but still it was showing as being clipped. Luckily after all the editing it worked out and sounds really good. Took some work but I feel it was well worth it.

The dither is way too low in level to add in that way. It is completely swamped by the far higher signal in both sources.  You're only going to get increased peaks where both sources have aligned peaks with similar levels.

Quote
I'd love hear some of your recordings using your omni-setup to hear the possible difference with those verses the condensers I used. Or maybe have you take a listen to mine and tell me what I should possibly tweak or try, or if things sound pretty good as is. Sometimes listening helps more than just talking about it.

Definitely does!  Happy to give a listen.  Most of my stuff is not posted, but I'm working on shifting towards doing so, mostly for folks here.  I think most productive is a hand-in-hand combination of discussion and listening to really get a good grip on what's going on.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline cmstewart

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Advice on Using a Zoom H5 for AUD recording
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2018, 02:35:31 AM »
Thanks for the response. Sorry for my delay... the start of the school-year kept me busier than usual. It was a crazy week!

Your assessment on how shifting caused the tracks to sum differently is pretty much exactly what I was thinking... you just worded it better. But I'm not sure it's because of the same reasons that you described. When I cut out a section at the beginning, I first selected to "sync-lock" the tracks, and then cute both at the exact same point. Then deleted the beginning portion, and while still sync-locked, shifted them back. I wasn't worried about the zero-crossing points because I was going to fade in from the beginning in a later step, so the points I cut at were going to be fading in from zero anyway. But, I do suspect that there may have been something (somehow) that got slightly offset which made it sum differently anyway. Audacity has given me some weird things like that when using multiple tracks before.

I know the dither is supposed to be basically in-audible, and at an incredibly low-level. It's just really odd that when I exported the exact same track without any alterations in 24-bit/48k and 16-bit/44.1k the 16/44.1 will suddenly have some clipped peaks, and the other is clean. My best guess besides the dither is when Audacity resamples it, there's some rounding that went up instead of down on those specific peaks, and made the amplitude a "bit" louder? Whatever it was, clearly the resampling did something to cause those clips.

I have some external links to my show. I also want to share it as a torrent (I think I'll use DIME at this point). I haven't shared torrents till now, it'll be my first one. But it seems like it'll circulate better that way. I can PM you those external links if you want them. The things I'd love to know is how the mix sounds - there are some occasions where I think I hear some phasing. I can't be sure though because it's only on vocals, and i know they use a phaser on his vocals sometimes anyway. Also the mix of ambiance and the band. If it would be better to have more ambiance, I may turn my condenser mic backwards next time. It it needs less, I may turn up the shotgun and the condenser down. Your advice would help a lot!

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.251 seconds with 39 queries.
© 2002-2018 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF