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Author Topic: DPA 406* Some Questions  (Read 1589 times)

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Offline gormenghast

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DPA 406* Some Questions
« on: August 07, 2018, 12:09:33 PM »
I'm thinking following String Cheese Incident on tour next year for a while and thought about running something small but high quality.  Most likely on a pair of glasses and blend in to the crowd in a sweet spot and capture not only the band but the crowd around me.  Got me to thinking about the DPA 4060 or 4061's--I don't know the difference really, so can someone tell me why I would want one over the other--I'll buy them for this one time run only.  How best to power them?  I have a R05 coming in the mail so that's my only deck.  I don't want to lug a bunch of gear around so small lightweight and easily powered would be best.  I could go back to a Nbox Schoeps rig but that is expensive for a one time--maybe last time--run with SCI.
A lot of people run a race to see who is the fastest. I run to see who has the most guts, who can punish himself into exhausting pace, and then at the end, punish himself even more.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2018, 12:47:31 PM »
4061 for that application.  It is less sensitive and can handle higher SPL than 4060.  It is slightly noisier, but its self-noise will be way, way below the noise floor of any venue Cheese plays.

You'll need a battery box or preamp to power them properly.

You'll need either a batt-box or preamp with microdot inputs, a microdot stereo Y adapter, or need to re-terminate the mics with a different connector suitable for the batt-box/preamp - most typically that means wiring both mics to a single TRS stereo miniplug or a mini-XLR.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline heathen

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2018, 01:07:39 PM »
I got a used pair of 4061s that are terminated in a stereo mini connector.  So far I've used those plugged into a CA9200 preamp, which is in turn plugged into a Roland R-05.  In the few outings I've had with this so far, I've been very happy with the results.

That said, I've thought about getting the 4061s re-terminated to microdot connectors so I could use an adapter to power them from phantom when running open.  If I do that I'd need the microdot stereo Y cable Gutbucket mentioned.

If you're buying new, you may want to get the Core version of the 4061s (I'm guessing the non-Core versions are still available new).  If it were me and I bought them new, I'd leave the microdot connectors and get the adapter cable.  I think that would still work with a battery box or pre like the CA9200.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05 | Tascam DR-2d

Offline fandelive

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2018, 05:12:37 PM »
If it were me and I bought them new, I'd leave the microdot connectors and get the adapter cable.  I think that would still work with a battery box or pre like the CA9200.

+1. The adapter cable works like a charm with a 9V powered battery box. That's what I do.

Below 9V might not be enough juice to power those mics propperly. I don't know about 12V battery boxes, but there might be a risk of frying the capsules...

Also if you buy them separated make sure both serial numbers are following themselves. Otherwise, you might get a non-matched pair. I've heard there could be a 8dB gap between two mics if they are from a different batch.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline heathen

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2018, 05:20:46 PM »
Also if you buy them separated make sure both serial numbers are following themselves. Otherwise, you might get a non-matched pair. I've heard there could be a 8dB gap between two mics if they are from a different batch.

Even if this is the case, though, once you've figured out the difference between the two capsules you could just start your post processing by applying the amount of gain needed to bring them back in line with each other.  I had a pair of Countryman B3s that were different, and I figured it out to be about 3.8 dB so I would just add 3.8 dB to the lower one right out of the gate.  It added about four seconds to my workflow  :)
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05 | Tascam DR-2d

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2018, 05:39:57 PM »
Powering voltage is 5-6V.  Safe range is 5-12V but no more, and 12V is pushing it!  My powering schemes other than use of Niaiant PFAs or the DPA phantom-adapters has alway been 9V alkaline or 9.6V NiMH battery based, using DPA MMA6000 or CA-UGLY-Preamps (V1 & V2).

I've not had a problem with new 406x and close enough matching.  I have seen large sensitivity and response differences with heavily used ones such as cheap Ebay "Broadway mics".  Be sure to check and measure those.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 09:08:22 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline EmRR

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2018, 07:58:24 PM »
Anyone with 4060's can run them into the line input of a recorder rather than a preamp in a loud environment.  They work fine that way too, so long as you have a way to provide power to them.  I did this all the time years ago with a MD recorder, and the levels lived just below the built in limiter threshold. 

Offline gormenghast

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2018, 08:31:16 PM »
Re:  Powering the microphones.  Could you have a cable made that would be Microdot ( pair ) to TB3F? I have a Naiant IPA that has a TB3M input ( 12v PIP--too much? ). And a stereo mini input.  Might just go with the Microdot>Stereo mini.
A lot of people run a race to see who is the fastest. I run to see who has the most guts, who can punish himself into exhausting pace, and then at the end, punish himself even more.

Offline fandelive

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2018, 02:36:41 AM »
Anyone with 4060's can run them into the line input of a recorder rather than a preamp in a loud environment.  They work fine that way too, so long as you have a way to provide power to them.  I did this all the time years ago with a MD recorder, and the levels lived just below the built in limiter threshold.

What recorder are you using when yo do that ? I'd like to know how much juice has to be provided by line-in for this to work. Also, 406x's are known to be power hogs so what kind of batteries did you use and how much time did they last ?
Will this increase the DPA's maximum SPL value (I think "no", but I ask anyway) ?

I have run a pair of 4060's thru a 9V CA preamp into line-in in a loud environment and got a fully distorted recording. I've been told the way I set the preamp provided too much juice to the mics.

For loud shows, I would recommand 4061's over 4060's.

Re:  Powering the microphones.  Could you have a cable made that would be Microdot ( pair ) to TB3F? I have a Naiant IPA that has a TB3M input ( 12v PIP--too much? ). And a stereo mini input.  Might just go with the Microdot>Stereo mini.

Taperssection member Darktrain built mine (2x microdot > 1x jack). Very well built. Maybe you could ask him ?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 03:36:07 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), SP-CMC-4 (at853), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2018, 09:31:49 AM »
Re:  Powering the microphones.  Could you have a cable made that would be Microdot ( pair ) to TB3F? I have a Naiant IPA that has a TB3M input ( 12v PIP--too much? ). And a stereo mini input.  Might just go with the Microdot>Stereo mini.

Yes you can have such a cable made. You'll need a 'Y' cable with female microdots on one end and either a TA3F (mini XLR) or stereo mini-plug on the other (to clarify, TB indicates a panel connector, TA indicates an in-line cable connector). Check with Jon at Niaiant about suitability of the IPA for the DPAs, use of the mini-XLR input verses the stereo-mini-jack input, etc.  As mentioned 12V is the extreme upper limit of powering voltage.  May be okay, but best to check.  Len at Core Sound would say no.  Don't fry your new mics.

Darktrain, Ted, or other TS cable makers can provide such cables.  You can DIY it by purchasing a pre-terminated female microdot to female microdot cable, cutting it in half and soldering the cut ends to the connector.  There are a couple sources for pre-terminated cables, which you can find in the team DPA thread, and other 406x threads.


What recorder are you using when yo do that ? I'd like to know how much juice has to be provided by line-in for this to work. Also, 406x's are known to be power hogs so what kind of batteries did you use and how much time did they last ?
No juice from the recorder, external powering via a battery box.

Quote
Will this increase the DPA's maximum SPL value (I think "no", but I ask anyway) ?
No.

Quote
I have run a pair of 4060's thru a 9V CA preamp into line-in in a loud environment and got a fully distorted recording. I've been told the way I set the preamp provided too much juice to the mics.
Most likely overloaded the input of the recorder.  4060 is very sensitive and produces a hot output at high SPLs which can overload downstream gear.  It's far more common that this is the source of distortion rather than the microphones themselves distorting.

Quote
For loud shows, I would recommand 4061's over 4060's.
Agreed.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline EmRR

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2018, 11:04:42 AM »
I used 4060's with a Sony MZ-R50 with a home made 9V battery box for years, going into the line input, nothing ever overloaded, in fact levels always sat comfortably below the automatic limiter threshold, and a lot of those shows were pretty dang loud. 

The manual says Line in: 69-194 mV which appears to be -23 to -14dBV, pretty low actually. 

I get that 4061's are the recommendation for most people here, work better with built in preamps, but I never had a problem, and it can work if dealt with properly, should anyone have a pair of 4060 already. 

I can say I put a 4060 on an acoustic guitar for a live multitrack job in a club with a mostly electric band, and the surrounding stage monitors and amps did make a fully distorted recording.  Interestingly, it wasn't overloading the preamp, but apparently internally.


Anyone with 4060's can run them into the line input of a recorder rather than a preamp in a loud environment.  They work fine that way too, so long as you have a way to provide power to them.  I did this all the time years ago with a MD recorder, and the levels lived just below the built in limiter threshold.

What recorder are you using when yo do that ? I'd like to know how much juice has to be provided by line-in for this to work. Also, 406x's are known to be power hogs so what kind of batteries did you use and how much time did they last ?
Will this increase the DPA's maximum SPL value (I think "no", but I ask anyway) ?

I have run a pair of 4060's thru a 9V CA preamp into line-in in a loud environment and got a fully distorted recording. I've been told the way I set the preamp provided too much juice to the mics.

For loud shows, I would recommand 4061's over 4060's.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 08:57:53 AM by EmRR »

Offline aaronji

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2018, 07:22:14 AM »
Another option for powering (albeit not a cheap one) would be a d:vice (MMA-A) into an iPhone.  Really compact and I think you could resell it easily after the tour, if you wanted to.  Otherwise, an MPS6030 is a pretty good option, if you can find one (I don't think that they are still in production).  Not the smallest option, but lightweight and has the microdot connections.

Offline gormenghast

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2018, 10:45:32 AM »
Looking at DPA's website there is a 4063 that is high spl and low voltage ( 3v ).  Does this mean this mic can be powered from small decks like the R05 or M10? 

The d:vice option sounds good too--I have an extra iPhone 7.
A lot of people run a race to see who is the fastest. I run to see who has the most guts, who can punish himself into exhausting pace, and then at the end, punish himself even more.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2018, 12:05:35 PM »
4063 has the same sensitivity as 4061 and a bit lower max SPL as I recall (would have to check).  It works down to 3V nominal instead of 5V.

If it will work direct into a recorder depends on what PIP voltage the recorder actually produces and if that's enough.  Most measure less than 3V, and I have no idea  how much is enough to get the mic to work. There are a few folks here at TS who have used 4063 this way.   I've not.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline dabbler

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2018, 02:18:07 AM »
Been using DPA 4063 for the past 3+ years with an M10, the 2.5V M10 PiP is fine for many shows.
I've read the mic-in level adjustment isn't below 2 on the M10, so I'll use a BB and line-in for loud shows.

The Smashing Pumpkins from a distance is fine with PiP on the M10:

  https://archive.org/details/tsp2018-09-02

As are all acoustic shows:

  https://archive.org/details/wpc2017-11-11.flac16

But no chance I'd record a band like Mogwai from the first row without a BB:

  https://archive.org/details/mogwai2017-11-21.flac16

My battery pack is similar to standard 9V battery boxes.  Instead of a 9V, I use a lightweight, rechargeable 8.4V EBL Li-ion battery and a 5K6 resistor where the 10K (or 13K) resistor usually goes.  10uF capacitor and 100K impedance resistor.  All resistors and caps are inside the 1/8" jack

Initially, I was concerned about the slightly lower SPL limit of the 4063 vs the 4061, but it doesn't seem to be a cause for concern with numerous loud shows under my belt.

Offline ilduclo

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Re: DPA 406* Some Questions
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2018, 10:46:12 AM »
4061's work for me with 9v bb and m10 or d50. Quiet or loud shows. Just make sure your 9v isn't 2 years old! :banging head:

 

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