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Author Topic: B9Audio microphone discussion  (Read 1297 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2018, 06:41:27 PM »
No prob.  There may be more info on the others on their FB page, but I don't have much patience for FB.
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Offline muj

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2018, 02:52:15 AM »
800 USD for the CSM88, but sounds like a 2400 USD...get one b4 a dealer network develops and price goes up 2-3x

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Offline b9audio

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2018, 06:46:30 AM »
B9audio CSM88 now flown in the National Concert Hall in Taipei, Taiwan. It replaced the Neumann USM69 at about the same spot. USM69 is certainly legendary icon and perform extremely well. The concern with USM69 is the size that always block someone when a larger ensemble performing and video camera is taking the shot.
Low profile is only one of the benefit of CSM88, highest sonic quality is essential for this grand concert hall and CSM88 exhibit highest quality apparently.
I compared CSM88 and the nearby MSTC64 during an orchestra rehearsal. it is very interesting that the MSTC64 is one of my favorite, but in this case, CSM88 is more charming with space sound. I thought it might answer my puzzle why some many experienced recording engineer like to use Blumlein stereo over ORTF stereo.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2018, 04:37:21 PM »
Thanks for joining the discussion!

I compared CSM88 and the nearby MSTC64 during an orchestra rehearsal. it is very interesting that the MSTC64 is one of my favorite, but in this case, CSM88 is more charming with space sound. I thought it might answer my puzzle why some many experienced recording engineer like to use Blumlein stereo over ORTF stereo.

Hard to beat Blumlein for good translation of ambience plus holographic imaging, assuming it can be placed in the perfect spot in a good sounding room.  ORTF is more universal and far less demanding of excellent acoustics and placement, yet the compromises which provide that wider applicability are just that- compromises.  This is only my opinion of course.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2018, 05:08:43 PM »
B9Audio,

If I may be so bold, please consider the possibility of producing a Mid/Side stereo microphone by combination of your CM150F supercardioid and CM180 bi-directional capsules in a single-body, end-address microphone.  That would be attractive for live music recordists by essentially producing a simple and compact microphone which produces a virtual crossed-hypercardioid pair upon Mid/Side decode, which I've sometimes refer to as "forward-biased Blumlein" around here as it provides many of the same sonic attributes, yet with just enough additional forward focus and increased stereo recording angle to have much greater practical application in many cases.  I suspect such a microphone might also be attractive as a light-weight stereo option for boom-operators.

I'm not sure if your capsules are modular and detach from the amplifiers or not.  If so it would be great to be able to switch the mid capsules between between omni, cardioid, supercardioid, your CM170 short-gun, or even a second bi-directional capsule for Blumlein.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Online heathen

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2018, 05:44:16 PM »
B9Audio,

If I may be so bold, please consider the possibility of producing a Mid/Side stereo microphone by combination of your CM150F supercardioid and CM180 bi-directional capsules in a single-body, end-address microphone.  That would be attractive for live music recordists by essentially producing a simple and compact microphone which produces a virtual crossed-hypercardioid pair upon Mid/Side decode, which I've sometimes refer to as "forward-biased Blumlein" around here as it provides many of the same sonic attributes, yet with just enough additional forward focus and increased stereo recording angle to have much greater practical application in many cases.  I suspect such a microphone might also be attractive as a light-weight stereo option for boom-operators.

I'm not sure if your capsules are modular and detach from the amplifiers or not.  If so it would be great to be able to switch the mid capsules between between omni, cardioid, supercardioid, your CM170 short-gun, or even a second bi-directional capsule for Blumlein.

Being able to switch the mid capsules would make that a very, very cool design.  Does anything like that, with switchable mid capsules, in a single stereo mic currently exist?
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Offline muj

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2018, 02:44:10 AM »
MS mic would be nice :coolguy: :coolguy: :coolguy: :coolguy: :coolguy: :coolguy:

Offline b9audio

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2018, 05:53:26 AM »
B9Audio,

If I may be so bold, please consider the possibility of producing a Mid/Side stereo microphone by combination of your CM150F supercardioid and CM180 bi-directional capsules in a single-body, end-address microphone.  That would be attractive for live music recordists by essentially producing a simple and compact microphone which produces a virtual crossed-hypercardioid pair upon Mid/Side decode, which I've sometimes refer to as "forward-biased Blumlein" around here as it provides many of the same sonic attributes, yet with just enough additional forward focus and increased stereo recording angle to have much greater practical application in many cases.  I suspect such a microphone might also be attractive as a light-weight stereo option for boom-operators.

I'm not sure if your capsules are modular and detach from the amplifiers or not.  If so it would be great to be able to switch the mid capsules between between omni, cardioid, supercardioid, your CM170 short-gun, or even a second bi-directional capsule for Blumlein.

Interesting idea. When planning CSM88, there're some following plan:
CSM44, side address, XY cardioid stereo. Very good for spot, not suitable for main stereo. (Too narrow)
CSM78, MS stereo shotgun, end address certainly.
CSM58, MS stereo, not decided end address or side address.
CSM48, MS stereo, not decided end address or side address.
CSM28..... kind of puzzle idea..... Omni center..... or..... can it be a variable directional mic when facing omni and figure-8 on the same direction? User can get any kind of directivity, and it will be a true omni and figure-8, not back to back cardioid.... Especially the omni one, the low frequency response will not be affected by distance.

However, all above is not a exchangeable M channel, instead they will share the same stereo pre-stage (CSMP-1).

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2018, 11:45:21 AM »
As a professional grade MS microphone it will be preferable to have Mid and Side output directly.  You might consider offering an optional MS>LR matrix adapter in a short amplifier body which would be inserted between the the microphone and mic-cable if direct LR output is desired, as that approach would eliminate the complexity of housing a switch and matrix circuitry in the microphone amplifier body while providing the same functionality.

End-address is the prefered format for the type of live music recording most folks at Taperssection are doing (and I presume would also be prefered for boom use), because that orientation is easier to aim appropriately with a windscreen in place and can be considerably less visually intrusive atop a microphone stand.  However, side address achieves closer coincidence in the stereo plane and may be preferred for studio and spot use.  I'm not sure to what extent the offset between the capsules in end-address orientation actually affects the hf polar patterns and resulting sound in a practical sense.  You probably have a better sense of the significance or lack of if of that.

Quote
CSM28..... kind of puzzle idea..... Omni center..... or..... can it be a variable directional mic when facing omni and figure-8 on the same direction? User can get any kind of directivity, and it will be a true omni and figure-8, not back to back cardioid.... Especially the omni one, the low frequency response will not be affected by distance.

Yes, some very interesting applications with that one.

Such a microphone could be quite useful in the multichannel array techniques I tend to champion around here, which are simple enough to be setup using a single microphone stand.  The approach builds upon a basic foundation of a spaced pair of omnis plus a center directional microphone.  One of the first improvements on this the substitution of a coincident stereo pair for the single center microphone.  An end-address CSM78 or CSM58 would work nicely in that position in most cases.

A step further would be substitution of pair of CSM28 for the spaced omnis, with the end-address omni Mids facing directly outwards to either side, such that the omnis are pointed 180 degrees away from one another and the fig-8s are facing fore/aft.  In that configuration the microphones are setup as sideways-facing end-address Mid/Side pairs, but would be used more like the variable-pattern technique you describe, providing front/back pattern control over the omni pair.  The recordest gains greater control over the direct/reverberant pickup ratio in the spaced omni pair, and can adjust that balance to taste after the recording has been made.

In total, that's three Mid/Side microphones feeding 6 recorded channels, providing control over the coincident stereo spread across the center of playback image in combination with control over the nature of the ambient pickup from the wide omnis.  This relatively simple setup is also leverageable for surround by forming a rear-facing, wide-spaced cardioid pair from the omnis, subsequently routed to the surround channels.  This is somewhat similar to your VR ball microphone, excluding Z-axis and substituting the wider A-B omni spacing for a spherical baffle.

Interchangeable Mid capsules would make these microphones fantastically flexible and attractive, and would be a unique feature as far as I'm aware, but is obviously only applicable if your system is designed as such.  I don't see the lack of that feature as being a problem as long as the pricing for individual complete microphones remains attractive.

Thanks for the ear and best of luck moving forward!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline b9audio

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2018, 10:00:06 PM »
As a professional grade MS microphone it will be preferable to have Mid and Side output directly.  You might consider offering an optional MS>LR matrix adapter in a short amplifier body which would be inserted between the the microphone and mic-cable if direct LR output is desired, as that approach would eliminate the complexity of housing a switch and matrix circuitry in the microphone amplifier body while providing the same functionality.

Agree, direct MS is the way to go. Since the amateur market is crowded, and all the professional gear got MS matrix already. I'll save my time, and provide other more unique solution.

Quote
End-address is the prefered format for the type of live music recording most folks at Taperssection are doing (and I presume would also be prefered for boom use), because that orientation is easier to aim appropriately with a windscreen in place and can be considerably less visually intrusive atop a microphone stand.  However, side address achieves closer coincidence in the stereo plane and may be preferred for studio and spot use.  I'm not sure to what extent the offset between the capsules in end-address orientation actually affects the hf polar patterns and resulting sound in a practical sense.  You probably have a better sense of the significance or lack of if of that.

Yes, I think the same. Easier to point the mic with end address capsule. Since the on-axis got the most significant time offset at about 15-20 mm, and figure-8 got minimum response at this direction. It maybe quote ok for most of the spectrum. Certainly not perfect for perfectionist, but there're still combination solution in that case. 

Quote
Such a microphone could be quite useful in the multichannel array techniques I tend to champion around here, which are simple enough to be setup using a single microphone stand.  The approach builds upon a basic foundation of a spaced pair of omnis plus a center directional microphone.  One of the first improvements on this the substitution of a coincident stereo pair for the single center microphone.  An end-address CSM78 or CSM58 would work nicely in that position in most cases.

A step further would be substitution of pair of CSM28 for the spaced omnis, with the end-address omni Mids facing directly outwards to either side, such that the omnis are pointed 180 degrees away from one another and the fig-8s are facing fore/aft.  In that configuration the microphones are setup as sideways-facing end-address Mid/Side pairs, but would be used more like the variable-pattern technique you describe, providing front/back pattern control over the omni pair.  The recordest gains greater control over the direct/reverberant pickup ratio in the spaced omni pair, and can adjust that balance to taste after the recording has been made.

In total, that's three Mid/Side microphones feeding 6 recorded channels, providing control over the coincident stereo spread across the center of playback image in combination with control over the nature of the ambient pickup from the wide omnis.  This relatively simple setup is also leverageable for surround by forming a rear-facing, wide-spaced cardioid pair from the omnis, subsequently routed to the surround channels.  This is somewhat similar to your VR ball microphone, excluding Z-axis and substituting the wider A-B omni spacing for a spherical baffle.

I read the post, but cannot find the attached PDF [>>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<]. Not sure I fully understand your setup.

Quote
Interchangeable Mid capsules would make these microphones fantastically flexible and attractive, and would be a unique feature as far as I'm aware, but is obviously only applicable if your system is designed as such.  I don't see the lack of that feature as being a problem as long as the pricing for individual complete microphones remains attractive.

It is very interesting, I will look into this and it could be done.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: B9Audio microphone discussion
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2018, 10:48:02 AM »
I read the post, but cannot find the attached PDF [>>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<]. Not sure I fully understand your setup.

If you follow that link it should take you to a particular post in the Oddball Microphone Techniques thread (pt1). I just edited the link, and it now appears to be working here.  At the bottom of that post you will find links to a little PDF booklet in several sections which graphically illustrates the approach, which is more of a generalized architecture rather than any singular setup.  The booklet is designed to provide an overview of that architecture, in addition to the suggested progression as recorded channel count increases from 3 up to 8 or more channels.

Both of the setups I described in my previous post here are included there- The 4 channel variant using a directional Mid/Side pair in the center between spaced omnis is shown on page 2.  The 6 channel variant I describe which also turns the spaced omnis into front/back facing Mid/Side pairs is shown at the bottom of page 5.

In general, the intent of this architecture is to provide increased control over direct/reverberant balance by optimizing separate portions of the array for each of those aspects, providing the recordist some degree of control over that vital balance at mixdown in such a way that they combine well without conflicts. The higher channel count versions provide additional control over center imaging and early reflections from the sides via the addition of the Optimum-Cardioid-Triangle-like (OCT) arrangement using sideways facing supercards.

The setup I'm currently using is the 6 channel variant shown at the top of page 5, which uses a 4-way diamond-shaped supercardioid arrangement in the center between spaced omnis.  This might be described as something of a Double OCT arrangement between spaced omnis or as OCT surround except using more widely spaced omnis and only a single rear-facing dedicated ambience/surround microphone instead of a pair.

I currently use spherical attachments on the wide omnis to provide some control of their hf directionality depending on how they are aimed.  I hope to experiment next with the 8 channel variant on the bottom of page 6, which turns the spaced omnis into front/back facing M/S pairs, further increasing direct/reverberant control and providing additional options for feeding surround channels.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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