Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Seeking advice on an upcoming project- $2k budget, best technique in ~700 rooms?  (Read 1332 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hoppedup

  • Trade Count: (17)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3074
  • Gender: Male
  • Sa da tay!
It's a long shot, but you could ask in the Team NC thread if anyone would come out and run their rig as well. In general, tapers seem to be less active around here these days, but it couldn't hurt to ask. More coverage is always a good thing. Especially if you don't have a lot of experience with flying mics.

I've taped at HRB a few times and always by the board. There is a roped-off area where you can put a stand at the left front corner of the board. It isn't DFC, but it sounds pretty good. I personally wouldn't run omnis unless I were really close to the PA or onstage in that room.
AKG SE300B CK91
CA-14 omnis
JB Mod NAK 300 CP1 - CP2
CAD C9
CA 9200
Tascam DR-40, Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-70D, Tascam DR-22WL
↑↑↓↓←→←→ BA Start
         


My recordings on bt.etree
  
My recordings on LMA

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12548
  • Gender: Male
Listen to the guys who've recorded there before. First hand knowledge is hard to beat. Especially if you dig what you hear from their recordings made there.

Path of least resistance to a good recording will be mics clamped to the balcony railing + SBD as captnhook suggests.  I'd suggest PAS (Point At Stacks) technique from back there with optimized spacing between microphones based upon the angle between them.  See the Improved PAS link at the bottom of my posts for details.  Record both the SBD and mics on the same recorder if at all possible as it makes things so much easier and IMHO often ends up sounding better than syncing files from two seperate free-running recorders, but that would require running cables between balcony and board.

However, since you have stage access, I'd strongly lean toward running mics on stage + SBD. Mics on stage will result in a far more impactful, upfront, wide, detailed, and less reverberant sound than mics in the back of the room.  If you can get access to two channels of the snake which runs from stage back to the soundboard, you can place whatever multichannel recorder you decide on at the soundboard location and won't have to make long cable run along the side wall in order to record both of those sources onto one recorder.  Your omnis should work nicely spaced something like 2 to 7 feet apart along the front edge of the stage.  Their setup and exact spacing isn't critical, just place them so that they get an even coverage and are not picking up the floor monitors.  Try to get a good direct line of sight between the snare drum and whichever mic closer to it.  Having SBD makes the spacing between omnis less critical as the SBD will fill any tendency toward "hole in the middle" which can sometimes happen with overly wide spaced omnis (but tends to be less problematic on stage anyway). 

In that case I'd probably also run the Zoom up on the balcony rail separately just as a safety.

 
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 12:25:50 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12548
  • Gender: Male
I have no experience with mic placement on a stage- If I were utilizing cardioids, do you have any advice based on the image of the stage of how you would go about capturing the close-sound you refer to? Right now, I am looking at pushing my budget a bit and picking up the Schoeps MSTC 64g- based on the advice here, and what I have read about it, it seems tailor suited to capturing quality recordings with less know-how. I would be able to purchase a field recorder with phantom power in order to place it wherever I wish- it seems to me that it would be a bit more idiot-proof & has a higher probability of capturing something quality that I can combine with the SBD feed- my main concern would simply be where to place it. I realize that purchasing separate mics would allow for more variation, but I believe that the MSTC would serve me well for a number of years until I build up more gear for manual setups, and I have read the danger in arranging mics in an ORTF arrangement with little experience, and how being off by minor degrees can have pretty large ramifications.

See above on placing omnis on stage.  Easy peasy.

I'd advise against going with a preset configuration stereo microphone.  Yeah it's convenient, but too limiting.  If you were doing studio or controlled environment taping, sure.  Nailing mic angles exactly isn't that critical, whereas being able to trade angle between microphones against the spacing between them is extremely valuable for live music taping where the microphones are placed further away from the source.  With a fixed config you are constrained to placing the microphones in the sweet spot every time, and that's not always going to be an option (and does not seem to be the best option there).  A pair of cardioids or supercardioids and a bar which allows for spacing and angle adjustment will suit the situations you encounter far better and also allow you to advance more quickly in you knowledge of how near-spaced configurations work.

For similar reasons, If you had to choose a fixed near-spaced microphone configuration, something like DIN with a 90-degree inclusive angle instead of the 110-degree inclusive angle of ORTF will work better in most AUD taping situations.  These days many tapers here at TS carry a few different 3D-printed mic bars which they choose between depending on the recording situation.  That sort of splits the difference between clean setup convenience, and flexibility.  However they are already familiar with the sometimes subtle differences between the various configurations and know which ones they like and prefer in certain situations.  I'd still suggest going with a mounting bar that allows you to adjust both angle and spacing between microphones, as that will allow you to get your head around how this all works, and can make better recordings when a preset bar is not appropriate.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12548
  • Gender: Male
One more thing- Don't run your mics onstage for this unless you can the SBD feed as well.  Stage mics alone can work really well for some instrumental acts, but not for anything with vocals.  But with SBD, on-stage mics rock!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline love2tape

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Thank you all a ton. I am going to pick up the Neumanns and the AKG C460b ck22's that were posted in this thread :) I can pick up a https://www.wilkinsonaudio.com/product/ortf-clip-km184/?v=7516fd43adaa if I want to go ORTF, and I am going to see about placing the ck22's on both ends of the stage. Thinking I'll close mic with the omnis, ORTF from the balcony, and capture a SBD feed with one of my zooms + -50db pads. Excited to see how this all plays out. Now I just need to see about how to set up the mk22's on the stage, and how to clamp to the railing- if anyone has any suggestions in these regards I am all ears.

Offline gewwang

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6067
I've taped once at the Haw River Ballroom and the balcony is a pretty far distance from the stage. I was there for Jeff Tweedy solo acoustic and went up there for a beer and it didn't sound very good from that far back and all the disinterested people were up there drinking and chatting.

Offline love2tape

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
I've taped once at the Haw River Ballroom and the balcony is a pretty far distance from the stage. I was there for Jeff Tweedy solo acoustic and went up there for a beer and it didn't sound very good from that far back and all the disinterested people were up there drinking and chatting.

Appreciate this- may I ask where you were taping from, in terms of mic placement? My plan would be to clamp to the bottom railings on the 1st balcony ORTF- so the mics would be at foot-level of the balcony, overlooking the crowd below, just a bit above where the PA system is set, and I would mostly be using this for ambiance. I linked to a recording that used this method at the same venue a bit above and it sounds pretty nice to my ears. I'd probably be mixing it pretty low over the rest of the tracks. This is a sold out show and the band generally has pretty respectful / excitable crowds- want to get a good central image for when everyone sings along.


With regards to omni placement near the stage- does anyone have any thoughts re: clamping to the railings by the stairs? The stage is pretty small, and it's hard to imagine placing them anywhere right up against the stage that wouldn't be bumping right against the monitors, so that seems to me like a pretty good bet for parallel placement that would be close to the action but still above the crowd and away from the monitors.

e: Oh, also, I asked this from the person who is selling the Neumanns, but in case anyone here can assist-

What exactly is the benefit of running the mics through a Lunatec V3 as opposed to plugging straight into, say, a Tascam DR-680mk2? Is it solely the quality of the preamps, or is there something else going on, there?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 07:51:56 PM by love2tape »

Offline gewwang

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6067

Appreciate this- may I ask where you were taping from, in terms of mic placement?

Jeff Tweedy was a sold out show so at first the venue told me I couldn't bring the stand inside. After I promised that I wouldn't set it up, they let me bring it in then I talked to the sound guy (in the sound booth which was on the right side of the room against the wall). I asked if it'd be okay to setup my stand against the wall and he agreed to that. Then a fellow taper showed up who knew the sound guy and we were able to move the stand over about 3 feet, but for the most part the stand was outside of the stacks anyway on the right side of the room.

Offline KenH

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Gender: Male
What exactly is the benefit of running the mics through a Lunatec V3 as opposed to plugging straight into, say, a Tascam DR-680mk2? Is it solely the quality of the preamps, or is there something else going on, there?
I'm sure others will chime in, but a good/great preamp like the V3 makes a huge difference in sound quality.  When I started I first got a Tascam HD-P2, then the Neumann's running directly into it. A friend who listened to a recording with this setup (Gov't Mule I believe) said, you need a preamp, and proceeded to sell me his V3.   The preamp is what powers and processes the input from the mics (as would a unit like the Tascam), but V3 does it much better.

Good luck with your purchase  8)
retired

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12548
  • Gender: Male
With regards to omni placement near the stage- does anyone have any thoughts re: clamping to the railings by the stairs? The stage is pretty small, and it's hard to imagine placing them anywhere right up against the stage that wouldn't be bumping right against the monitors, so that seems to me like a pretty good bet for parallel placement that would be close to the action but still above the crowd and away from the monitors.

I'll still press for on-stage mic placement.  Being allowed that access is a gift and a treasure.  Think twice before not taking advantage of it.

Typically on-stage placement is between or, even immediately adjacent to floor monitors.  Just don't place a microphone in the direct-radiation zone in front of a monitor.  You don't have to put them up high, a foot or two above the stage is fine.  In addition to capturing a far more lush and dynamic sound of the instrumentation and drums, you will get much better audience reaction in mics placed there, often with a perfect balance of band and engaged audience.  Up front is where audience engagement and interaction is greatest, that's where the folks who really love the band and want to sing along will gravitate in the room. 

Mics far from the stage up in the balcony will capture a more distant, less-engaging perspective with less audience excitement, maybe distracted conversation at points.  If you didn't have stage and SBD access that placement would be a good option, but pretty much only for three reasons: The PA projects and points directly at the balcony so clarity is actually decent (if the PA was not in use for say something completely acoustic, a balcony location recording would be likely to sound unacceptably distant and reverberant); it places the mics far enough from most of the audience such that hopefully no single individual audience member or conversation dominates in the recording; it's an out of the way, easy to defend recording position.  I have no doubt that you'd be quite happy with a recording made from there + SBD, and that's the right choice a lot of times (maybe most of the time), but it is a compromise you needn't make for this performance for a recording you seem very excited about making.

Getting a bit philosophical again- Recording location strongly trumps almost everything else. Everything else is details and compromises in comparison.  Place your mics where the musical excitement and energy you wish to convey resides, assuming that's what you want to reproduce.  Put them in the back of the room and you'll reproduce the musical excitement and audience energy which dominates there.  It's pretty much that simple.  It's just not always doable or practical under the constraints we're typically faced with.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline KenH

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 687
  • Gender: Male
Also want to chime in that I think ORTF (110 degrees mic angles, 17 cm apart at the capsules), unless up close, isn't optimal further back.   For that reason, I most often used 60 degrees, 30 cm apart.   I think that setup picks up more direct sound w/ the Neumann's, and less reverberation from say, the walls on the sides.  In fact, I applied a simple forumla, (180 - MicAngle)/4=# of cm apart for the mics, thus 180-60=120/4=30 cm apart.   180-40 (ever more direct) = 140/4=35 cm apart.    Even made a moke inspired mic bar for this purpose with those settings marked.   Worked for me anyway...

If you look at the Stereophone Zoom, those numbers/combinations all fall into the sweet area for cardioid mics (based on where ORTF lies).
retired

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12548
  • Gender: Male
^ Agreed totally.  However, in this case he's basically using the ORTF setup for room sound and crowd reaction so whatev, ORTF will be fine for that.  love2tape, what KenH is talking about is the closely-tied relationship of the spacing between microphones and the angle between them.  It's why I suggested the Improved PAS approach which is a simplified way of applying Stereo Zoom to maximize clarity while retaining good stereo qualities at distant recording locations.  All the common near-spaced mic setups (ORTF, DIN, NOS, etc) are approximated by entries along the Improved PAS table, further extending the trend of those configurations in both directions.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline rocksuitcase

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4995
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
What exactly is the benefit of running the mics through a Lunatec V3 as opposed to plugging straight into, say, a Tascam DR-680mk2? Is it solely the quality of the preamps, or is there something else going on, there?
I'm sure others will chime in, but a good/great preamp like the V3 makes a huge difference in sound quality.  When I started I first got a Tascam HD-P2, then the Neumann's running directly into it. A friend who listened to a recording with this setup (Gov't Mule I believe) said, you need a preamp, and proceeded to sell me his V3.   The preamp is what powers and processes the input from the mics (as would a unit like the Tascam), but V3 does it much better.

Good luck with your purchase  8)
love2tape: using an external pre-amp is generally an "upgrade" to a rig as a substitute for the onboard pre-amps in the recorder. Some recorders have decent stock pre-amps but most of them are less quality than any external pre-amp. There are some resellers, such as OADE brothers who perform modifications to the recorders' pre-amps themselves, and IMO these pre-amp modifications are worth the cost of them. (in the YS if you see a recorder marked 'OADE' or 'OADE mod' it means what I just typed).
There are generally five external pre-amps used around here: the Shure FP24; the mix-pre/mix-preD; naiant variations; Grace Lunatec V2/V3; church variations.
Each one has its pros and cons performance vs cost vs size vs powering options, but the V3 you mention is widely considered one of the optimal ones if a bit pricey.

The other side of this would be the Sound Devices Mixpre3/Mixpre6 recorders with excellent quality onboard pre-amps. They are priced accordingly AND takes a bit of a learning curve to use them but also widely considered around here to be great choices given their small size and no need for external pre-amps.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline goodcooker

  • Trade Count: (25)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2649
  • Gender: Male
  • goes to 11

If it was me I would buy the Busman modified Tascam DR680 in the Yard Sale and pick up a pair of cardioid microphones. They are more useful in more situations IMHO than any other pattern.

I would use your leverage with the band to place the mics in ORTF on the stage or at the stage lip and use the house snake to run those mics back to the console. Keep your recorder at the board and take the signal from the mics back there in addition to a board feed. With the extra channels on the DR680 you could also take a direct out for the vocal channel and mix it to taste later if needed. Alternately you could get the FOH to send the stereo matrix out through the snake to the stage and take a patch there while running your gear from the side of the stage. This takes a little advance legwork, planning and a willing FOH engineer. Be prepared with lots of cable in every termination just in case. Once it's set it is the easiest way to get a SBD+AUD 4 channel recording.

If you choose mics that aren't too spendy (again, if it was me, I'd get a pair of Audio Technica 4051s) you could come in well under your budget and still get all the other stuff you would need to operate in the wild - batteries, cables, adapters, shockmounts, more cables...

Caveat - if the SBD is digital which many are nowadays the old fashioned "snake" which is just a bundle of cables with an inout box for the stage and a fan of outputs for the SBD may not even be in play - working with your friendly local FOH can usually get you what you need. Even digital boards have a bunch of analog outputs.
Schoeps MK41 > nBob > PFA || MBHO KA300 > PFA
Aerco MP2 || Grace Lunatec V2 || RAD MS2 || nBox Platinum
Marantz PMD706 || PMD620

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City

"I don't know who left this perfectly good inflatable wook doll here, but if I'm blowing her up, I'm keeping her." -  hoppedup

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12548
  • Gender: Male
External preamps can be good, can make a significant difference sometimes, are fun to play around with.. but are not essential or fundamental (and will consume your budget).

Get started with a focus on basic fundamentals-   Recording location & microphone setup, simplified signal chains which don't have lots of interconnects, proper level setting.  Minimize the number of things which can go wrong, because they will.  Once you've sort of settled into what works for you, fine tune your approach and chase sonic perfection with preamps and such.  You'll have a good handle on everything else at that point.  And even then, you don't need to use external preamps to make outstanding recordings.  I rarely use them anymore these days unless I need one for a specific reason. 

A beautiful thing about taping is that there is no single way to going about it - different tapers value different things and gravitate to different approaches.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.281 seconds with 42 queries.
© 2002-2018 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF