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Author Topic: New SONY PCM-A10  (Read 9945 times)

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Offline shaggy

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2018, 05:17:40 AM »
Hmmm, it has a "Zoom" setting.  :P :bigsmile:
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Offline aaronji

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2018, 06:08:12 AM »
Interesting.  I guess Sony didn't decide to exit the market after all...

The remote app should be well received by stealthers and it is pretty tiny as well.  It supports FLAC playback, so it might make a decent portable player.  I am always a little skeptical of built-in batteries, though, and the specs aren't very complete.  I am curious to read the reviews once they start coming out!

Online adrianb

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2018, 08:45:10 AM »
I predict that I will be buying one of these. I agree about the built-in batteries though.

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2018, 10:13:59 AM »
This is indeed a very interesting development, and just as I was about to order a Roland-R07. I guess I'll be holding back on that for the moment and pre-order one of these instead.
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Offline thomasdk7

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2018, 10:21:01 AM »
Looking forward to hear more about recording Line In on this device. The manual mentions that you can select between "Mic In" and "Audio In", but haven't found more information about Audio In (Line In).

Offline yug du nord

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2018, 10:55:26 AM »
Promising... 
But I don't like the built in USB-A for charging.
And unless it's next to the USB, I don't see a DC jack for an external battery.
It "only" goes down to 40Hz which seems goofy to me.
No phatty sub-sonic omni recordings with this.

Other than that, it seems like it could be great.
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline heathen

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2018, 10:58:02 AM »
It "only" goes down to 40Hz which seems goofy to me.
No phatty sub-sonic omni recordings with this.

My assumption is that spec refers to recordings made with the internal mics.  Just an assumption though.
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Offline yug du nord

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2018, 11:03:34 AM »
/\
That makes sense...  let's hope that's for the internal mikes.
Good call man!
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Offline dogmusic

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2018, 11:41:19 AM »
Here's the online manual:

https://helpguide.sony.net/icd/pcma10/v1/en2/index.html

This may be just a glorified voice recorder.
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Offline junkyardt

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2018, 11:57:52 AM »
This may be just a glorified voice recorder.

i think the URL makes that clear:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/voice-recorders/pcm-a10

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2018, 12:10:56 PM »
"When a plug in power type microphone is connected, power is automatically supplied to the microphone from the linear PCM recorder."

No option to manually change this in settings? So what happens if you have a battery box in between?

Offline dogmusic

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2018, 12:12:37 PM »
This may be just a glorified voice recorder.

i think the URL makes that clear:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/voice-recorders/pcm-a10

So, the question is how much of the M10 was carried over to this machine.
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Offline mnm207

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2018, 12:14:49 PM »
I think this is more a successor to Sony's ICD-SX2000 with the addition of the "Rehearsal" gain setting feature. That model no longer appears to be on Sony's website and there is more than a passing resemblance between the two. I didn't do a detailed comparison of the specs (as still listed on B&H), but they look pretty close. 

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2018, 12:18:11 PM »
Here are the details on MIC IN vs Audio IN — it's selected in software settings, though nothing on how this actually affects the preamp, etc.:

https://helpguide.sony.net/icd/pcma10/v1/en2/contents/TP0001684425.html

Given the promo photos of using it to record instruments, it looks like Sony is trying to replace the M10's functionality in a smaller form factor, a la the R-07. I won't be rushing out to ditch my M10s anytime soon — 10-15 hour battery life while recording is a major step down with the A10, even if still decent — but I'm certainly interested in hearing how this thing works in the field.

Offline dogmusic

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2018, 12:35:47 PM »
I think this is more a successor to Sony's ICD-SX2000 with the addition of the "Rehearsal" gain setting feature. That model no longer appears to be on Sony's website and there is more than a passing resemblance between the two. I didn't do a detailed comparison of the specs (as still listed on B&H), but they look pretty close.

My memory of the SX2000 is that there was something annoying in the implementation of making higher res recordings.
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Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2018, 01:05:58 PM »
It "only" goes down to 40Hz which seems goofy to me.

I didn't see that. Looks like quite a bummer. And I can't really think of a valid reason why Sony did this. The SX2000 had the same frequency range, but it was marketed primarily as a voice recorder. The PCM-A10 is clearly marketed for recording music, and it even has the "PCM" in the name, which suggests to me that Sony sees it in the same product category as their previous music recorders. I guess time will tell how this thing works out.
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Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2018, 01:22:06 PM »
I found a video of the A10 on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vjv6d71hJY

Some specs are visible in the background. They are in German. The topmost bullet point is "Diktiergerät", which means "Voice Recorder" or "Dictaphone"...
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 01:24:25 PM by Sebastian »
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2018, 01:32:18 PM »
This may be just a glorified voice recorder.

i think the URL makes that clear:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/voice-recorders/pcm-a10

The M10 was also just a glorified voice recorder. This has 24/96 recording and 16GB internal memory. Can’t wait to tell the kids at the door pretending to do security that it’s my dictation device for work!
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Offline ilduclo

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2018, 01:52:03 PM »
m10 is 24/96, too, or is it not? At any rate, 24/96 is dogs can hear only

 :laugh:

Offline gewwang

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2018, 04:08:35 PM »
1.

Found this in the manual, which doesn't sound promising for stealth (or alot of field recording conditions):

https://helpguide.sony.net/icd/pcma10/v1/en2/contents/TP0001684409.html

Recording with manual volume adjustment (manual recording)
You can manually select the optimum recording volume level for the sound source.

Note
If you accidentally touch your linear PCM recorder or let an object come in contact with it while recording is in progress, rustling or scratching noises may be recorded.



2.

Is there a "hold" button? That was the biggest knock by people when the mixpre-3/6 came out.

3.

I suppose you could tell security it's a sex toy:


Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2018, 04:14:09 PM »
Note
If you accidentally touch your linear PCM recorder or let an object come in contact with it while recording is in progress, rustling or scratching noises may be recorded.

This is probably related to the internal microphones.

2.
Is there a "hold" button? That was the biggest knock by people when the mixpre-3/6 came out.

Yes, on the side. Combined with the power switch. Same as on the M10.
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2018, 04:17:27 PM »



Looks kinda Trumpy, but what do I Know?

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Offline gewwang

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2018, 04:34:10 PM »
Note
If you accidentally touch your linear PCM recorder or let an object come in contact with it while recording is in progress, rustling or scratching noises may be recorded.

This is probably related to the internal microphones.


You're right, later in the manual the section on recording from an external device doesn't have that warning message.

At the $229 price point, it's definitely worth a tryout with external mics and a HQ preamp. The powering limitation kinda stinks.

Offline dogmusic

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2018, 05:09:09 PM »

The M10 was also just a glorified voice recorder.

Not in the sense of a dictaphone / memo keeper. The M10 was primarily for ENG (hence the omni mics) and of broadcast quality. A voice recorder implies fairly low quality.
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2018, 09:12:50 PM »
This has the same cheapo look as some low end Tascam recorders. Hope it sounds great and I won't care how cheap it looks.
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2018, 10:27:17 PM »
The built in USB is weird.
Says 15 hrs battery life but I wonder if you were not using google it for stealth and wanted to attach a battery pack if you could or if it would want to go into a transfer or charge mode
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Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2018, 03:07:23 AM »
The built in USB is weird.

I don't mind that. Actually I think it's quite handy for people who only use the internal memory and want to quickly transfer their recordings to a computer. Every time I want to do that with my M10, I have to search for that old-style miniature USB-B cable first.
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2018, 10:22:32 AM »
At last they have dropped the M10 closely-spaced-omni mics, which were more or less useless for capturing any kind of stereo image.  The M10 mic quality was quite good apart from the imaging, so hopefully these will be generally as good with the added benefit of actual stereo.

Offline ilduclo

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2018, 03:05:53 PM »
I thought so, m10 settings. from crap to that only dogs can hear, I myself use 44.1 x24 as the smallest size that I can still do amplification on without hiss

 :guitarist:


from m10 manual p 42

LPCM 22.05kHz/16bit
LPCM 44.10kHz/16bit
LPCM 44.10kHz/24bit
LPCM 48.00kHz/16bit
LPCM 48.00kHz/24bit
LPCM 96.00kHz/16bit
LPCM 96.00kHz/24bit
MP3 44.10kHz/64kbps
MP3 44.10kHz/128kbps
MP3 44.10kHz/320kbps

Offline relefunt

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2018, 01:03:29 AM »
m10 is 24/96, too, or is it not? At any rate, 24/96 is dogs can hear only

 :laugh:
I guess my point was that there is no reason someone using it as a voice recorder would be using 24/96, so it can't just be intended for voice. Or maybe it is. I'm wrong all the time!
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2018, 10:23:04 AM »

I guess my point was that there is no reason someone using it as a voice recorder would be using 24/96, so it can't just be intended for voice. Or maybe it is. I'm wrong all the time!

Given the photos, Sony clearly doesn't intend it to be used just as a voice recorder, even if they're categorizing it under "voice recorders."

Whether this makes it good enough for our purposes is an open question, but that was true for the R-07 when it came out, too. I'm cautiously optimistic, with an emphasis on the caution.

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2018, 11:48:56 AM »
Got mine today. The build quality feels about the same as the recent Roland R07. Nowhere near as solid as the M10, but compared to that, it's really tiny. Did a quick test of the iOS app. What I really liked about the R07 app is the fact that you can re-connect from within the iOS app. For the Sony A10, you actually have to switch to iOS' Bluetooth settings to make the connection, then switch back to the Sony app.

I have some shows this and next weekend, so I should be able to run some tests.

Here's a first picture for size comparison.
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Offline aaronji

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2018, 02:41:42 PM »
I have some shows this and next weekend, so I should be able to run some tests.

I'm looking forward to reading about your findings! 

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2018, 02:50:54 PM »
Never understood the sony fluffing.

Very happy with my Roland R-05!
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Offline Popmarter

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2018, 05:44:47 PM »
Does it run for 31 days?  ;D
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2018, 02:35:28 AM »
Never understood the sony fluffing.

Very happy with my Roland R-05!

Thank you for this valuable contribution to the discussion.
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2018, 03:01:44 AM »
Never understood the sony fluffing.

Very happy with my Roland R-05!
ROLAND R-05??


What kind of Sony A-10 is that?


tell me more!!!??!
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2018, 04:53:58 AM »
I am curious to hear your results...
Where did you get it, btw? I haven't seen in on B&H or anywhere else.

Got mine today. The build quality feels about the same as the recent Roland R07. Nowhere near as solid as the M10, but compared to that, it's really tiny. Did a quick test of the iOS app. What I really liked about the R07 app is the fact that you can re-connect from within the iOS app. For the Sony A10, you actually have to switch to iOS' Bluetooth settings to make the connection, then switch back to the Sony app.

I have some shows this and next weekend, so I should be able to run some tests.

Here's a first picture for size comparison.
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Offline robeti

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2018, 05:59:31 AM »
Never understood the sony fluffing.

Very happy with my Roland R-05!

Thank you for this valuable contribution to the discussion.

You're welcome!
Have a good weekend!  :cheers: ;D
mics: nakamichi cm-50 | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-u853a 4.7k mod (h/c/sc) | ca-11 (c)
power: ca-ubb (x2) | ca-9200
recorder: roland r-05 (x2)
video: panasonic hdc-sd600 | panasonic hdc-700 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2018, 07:04:47 AM »
Where did you get it, btw? I haven't seen in on B&H or anywhere else.

I ordered it from German retailer Conrad. They had listed it to be available for a November 17 delivery, so I was very surprised when I got the shipping confirmation two days ago.
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

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Live Music Archive | DaD Torrents | TTD Torrents | Etree Torrents

Offline Sevoflurane

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2018, 10:08:37 AM »
Will definitely be following this thread. I love my M10 and I definitely want to stay with Sony since it's all I have been running since I started. Just really happy with their quality.

The sticker does say "High-res audio"  :yack:

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2018, 05:48:16 PM »
Here are my preliminary findings after the first few days and the first show with the A10. I am comparing the A10 primarily to the recently released Roland R-07 and the older Sony PCM-M10 (for which the A10 might be Sony's successor). One focus point for me is the comparison of the Sony and Roland iOS apps (as I am mostly a stealth taper and these apps will be how I presume to be using my recorders most of the time).

  • Build quality is on the same level as Roland R-07. Not as solid (and heavy) as the PCM-M10. It fits well into a hand.
  • The A10 starts up really fast (in less than 5 seconds it's ready to record onto an SD card).
  • Battery run time is exceptional. The specs list 20 hours of recording time at 24/44.1. However, I was able record from the Line-in for 23.5 straight hours on a single charge.
  • A completely discharged battery takes approximately 90 minutes to charge (via the USB ports on a 2014 MacBook Pro).
  • The input is switchable between Mic and Line levels via a menu. However, this menu only exists on the device and not in the iOS app.
  • By default, the A10 creates WAVE files that are 4 GB big. This is valid per the WAVE file specification. However, some programs can only handle files up to 2 GB. There is no way to change this behavior on the recorder
  • You need to establish the Bluetooth connection via iOS Bluetooth settings. The Roland app lets you do this from within the app. For the Sony, there is one additional app switch required.
  • I like the level meters on the A10 app better than the ones on the Roland app. They have the -12dB mark in the center and this feels much more like what I'm used to. In my opinion, the Roland app wastes way too much screen space to displaying levels below -20dB (where the details don't really interest me). Also, I like the fact that it gives me a number of the current peak level value. I also really like the fact that it displays the wave form from the last 10 or so seconds. I guess this makes it possible to spot problems like brickwalling early on during recording.
  • The Sony app does not have a slider for setting the recording levels like the Roland app does. Therefore, changing levels can be quite slow as you need to repeatedly press the + or - buttons
  • Setting recording levels on the Sony A10 is way easier than on the Roland R-07. On the Roland, once you push either the + or - button, a big popup appears on the screen with the current level value, obstructing the view of the level meters. The Sony keeps the level meters visible while adjusting levels. However, I must say that I still prefer the old PCM-M10's level wheel. It's way easier to make big adjustments with the wheel than to use discrete steps via the +/- buttons. On the other hand, for stealth situations it's nice to be able to engage the hold feature for the levels.
  • The battery status is displayed on the Sony app, although it only displays the same icon as the device (a battery with 4 segments). The Roland app displays a percentage value, which I find more useful
  • For cross memory recording, the manual of the A10 states that it's possible that some audio may get lost when switching from internal memory to SD card (or vice-versa).

I just came back from the first show with the A10. Actually, I took both the A10 and the Roland R-07 with me. I used a split cable to feed the same signal to both recorders. I uploaded the same song from both recordings. Both files are unedited, besides a little level bump of 1.2 dB on the R07 source to make both recordings the same volume.

The band is called Chvrches. This is Schoeps MK41V > tinybox > Sony PCM-A10 and Roland R-07. A10 levels were set to 9 and resulted in peaks at -5.5 dB, R07 levels were set to 18 and resulted in peaks at -6.7 dB.
Here's the WeTransfer link. Should be good for a week:
https://we.tl/t-XM2Nw4YrUr

I really can't hear a difference between the A10 and R-07. The frequency analysis shows a small difference around 20.5 kHz, but I guess years of loud shows left me incapable of hearing it. ;-)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 05:51:08 PM by Sebastian »
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

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Live Music Archive | DaD Torrents | TTD Torrents | Etree Torrents

Offline heathen

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2018, 06:26:33 PM »
I'm not really in the market for a new small recorder, but I still want to say thanks for putting so much effort into this comparison.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2018, 06:30:16 PM »
Awesome review!

Even after selling three decks to get down to four, I really want to hear the A10 mic in with babynbox. Despite after buying three 620s and having them all nodded. Sick!
😈 Mk4v/41v>nbob actives>Baby nbox>Oade warm mod Marantz 620.

Open: 4v/41v>nbobs>nbox platinum>620

Also Oade warm mod 661, two functional HHB portadats and a Fostex D5 that works when it wants to.

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2018, 11:59:36 PM »
A completely discharged battery takes approximately 90 minutes to charge (via the USB ports on a 2014 MacBook Pro).

good to know a quick 15 minutes with a portable charger at setbreak seems like more than enough to carry you thru a second set

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2018, 12:27:38 AM »
Thanks, Sebastian, for the detailed report! This all sounds very promising, especially that long battery life.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2018, 06:53:40 AM »
Excellent comparative review - thanks!

I know that most participants here regard use of built in mics with horror, but it might none the less be interesting if you were able to somehow compare the three in that respect.  As is well known here, my opinion of the M10 mics is that the sound is good but the stereo image is useless.  The Roland I think has the same mic design as the M10 (I am open to correction!).  The A10 has cardioid mics that have a fighting chance of producing a stereo image - but maybe they sound crap for all that.  Any comments?

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2018, 08:44:47 AM »
I'd also be curious to hear a side-by-side comparison of the M10 and A10, with similar inputs. Does the new device have the same built-in preamp quality, despite being only a single jack for both mic and line in?

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2018, 10:05:07 AM »
I'd also be curious to hear a side-by-side comparison of the M10 and A10, with similar inputs. Does the new device have the same built-in preamp quality, despite being only a single jack for both mic and line in?

I'm planning on doing that comp next. I don't think the single jack vs. multiple jacks thing has anything to do with the quality. To put it another way: We do not know that the M10 had separate preamps on the two separate inputs. And we don't know that the A10's input goes to a single preamp. Since it is switchable between Mic and Line input, it could theoretically also route to two separate preamps (although I highly doubt that).
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

Recordings:
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2018, 12:33:08 PM »
I'd also be curious to hear a side-by-side comparison of the M10 and A10, with similar inputs. Does the new device have the same built-in preamp quality, despite being only a single jack for both mic and line in?

I'm planning on doing that comp next. I don't think the single jack vs. multiple jacks thing has anything to do with the quality. To put it another way: We do not know that the M10 had separate preamps on the two separate inputs. And we don't know that the A10's input goes to a single preamp. Since it is switchable between Mic and Line input, it could theoretically also route to two separate preamps (although I highly doubt that).

All very likely, but I'm still eager to hear how your next comp comes out.

I am getting tempted to sell one of my M10s and buy an A10 so I can do some side-by-side tests myself...

Offline Sevoflurane

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2018, 02:10:05 PM »
Thanks for the detailed report, Sebastian! Looking forward to hearing an M10/A10 comparison! But this looks like a great option for stealthing to move on from the M10.

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2018, 09:05:23 AM »
I took the A10 out to a festival the last two days and am really impressed with it. It worked perfectly and being able to control it with the iOS app is really nice. The A10 never left my pocket the whole weekend.

I also did a comparison against the PCM-M10. Like last time, this is the same signal fed to both the A10 and M10 via a splitter cable.

This is Father John Misty and I deliberately picked a song that has some dynamics:
https://we.tl/t-sCwTc1h4lT

In case you don't like the Father, maybe the Flaming Lips are more to your liking:
https://we.tl/t-LuM6M9B2Yq

So what do you guys think?
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

Recordings:
Live Music Archive | DaD Torrents | TTD Torrents | Etree Torrents

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2018, 09:40:26 AM »
Sounds outstanding to me. I can't discern any difference at all.

Offline daspyknows

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2018, 12:55:29 PM »
Sebi does it seem to be more metal detector proof than the M-10.  I have a bunch of Tascam DR-2D's and like the recorder but if the mic pre-amp is any good this may be the recorder to run with a babynbox for extreme security shows.  The ios app does me no good since I am an apple is food / android user.

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2018, 01:23:15 PM »
Sebi does it seem to be more metal detector proof than the M-10.  I have a bunch of Tascam DR-2D's and like the recorder but if the mic pre-amp is any good this may be the recorder to run with a babynbox for extreme security shows.  The ios app does me no good since I am an apple is food / android user.

I have no means to properly test that, but the A10 feels way lighter and less metal than both the M10 and DR-2d (comparable to the remote of my Samsung TV).

I do have a hyper sensitive metal detector at home that I use on walls before drilling holes in them to make sure there are no pipes or wires. Both the M10 and A10 get picked up by it, but so are the rivets on my jeans. ;)

However, since no venues around here have MDs I can't really test it in a real world scenario. There are two big venues in Berlin that have MDs now, but I almost never ever tape there because usually the same shows come to Munich or Zurich (both way closer to me).

There is an Android app, too. And judging from the screenshots on the Google Play store, it looks identical to the iOS one.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 01:25:59 PM by Sebastian »
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

Recordings:
Live Music Archive | DaD Torrents | TTD Torrents | Etree Torrents

Offline daspyknows

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2018, 12:05:56 AM »
Thx. I am sure thee will be some reports here in the US where they are everywhere.

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2018, 10:48:59 AM »
Does the A10 have a lock all feature?
😈 Mk4v/41v>nbob actives>Baby nbox>Oade warm mod Marantz 620.

Open: 4v/41v>nbobs>nbox platinum>620

Also Oade warm mod 661, two functional HHB portadats and a Fostex D5 that works when it wants to.

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2018, 11:09:31 AM »
Does the A10 have a lock all feature?

It has a hold switch that is combined with the power switch, similar to the M10. It locks all buttons, but the unit can still be controlled via the bluetooth app.
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

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Live Music Archive | DaD Torrents | TTD Torrents | Etree Torrents

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2018, 11:42:56 AM »
Thanks!
😈 Mk4v/41v>nbob actives>Baby nbox>Oade warm mod Marantz 620.

Open: 4v/41v>nbobs>nbox platinum>620

Also Oade warm mod 661, two functional HHB portadats and a Fostex D5 that works when it wants to.

Offline DSatz

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2018, 02:10:40 PM »
Just as a comment, the main reason for using omnidirectional built-in microphones in portable recorders is that they're ~20 dB less sensitive to wind noise and solid-borne sound (thumps, etc. from handling or from sound conducted to the recorder via the table or desk that the recorder may be placed on) than directional microphones would be. If there's any solid part of the recorder between the mikes, large enough to obstruct high frequency sound, then (between that and the physical spacing) there will still be some difference information between the channels from the midrange on up, and thus some stereo effect especially if headphones are used for listening.

This type of recorder is often marketed to people who know little or nothing about recording and want to keep it that way. By using the built-in ALC along with the built-in mikes, they can record business meetings and "life events" in a fully automatic way. The microphone arrangement is "stereo enough" that spoken words can be localized fairly well--which aids greatly in comprehension when the room is reverberant and/or the mikes aren't close to the people speaking.

At this point 96 kHz recording costs Sony almost nothing to throw in, and it looks good on a spec sheet / keeps the recorder from seeming to be outdated, so why not, even though it doesn't materially help anything soundwise.
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Zeppelinmad

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2018, 02:45:00 AM »
Hi Sebastian,

Did you run the mikes through a Battery Box?  I have a Sony M10 with Church Ugly Battery Box and Church CA11 Cardioids - only thing I don't like about the M10 is it's size, risk of metal detection and the fact I have to buy a new pair of Duracells every concert for fear of them running out mid show.  Recently stealthed Steven Wilson here in Melbourne and when I got outside the screen was blank!!!! I was in a panic till I got hime - fortunately the batteries ran out AFTER the final encore and I only lost some of the crowd noise as we exited the show with the house lights on!!!  The internal battery sounds like a godsend for this issue.   Battery boxes are a pain in the ass - from a stealth point of view they can be hard to explain - why would you carry a batter with a box and some wires into a venue ?? Sounds like something a terrorist would do - so I'm always conscious when I go in.  If there was a way of lighting up external mikes from the recording device it would (1) Reduce the risk of a dodgy wire slipping out during the show, (2) be one less thing and one less wire to take in (3) One less battery to run out  - so that would be a feature I'd love.  I've recorded a lot of shows with this set up - the Wilson ones are on Yeeshkul (which is the only place PT and Wilson stuff is as Dime / TTD have him as an artist that's requested no ROIO - (I don't think he did - more like his management back in the PT days)) and I'm very happy with the quality sound from these shows - the RAH ones I did in 2015 with this rig are outstanding - even if I do say so myself.  But I'm always interested in smaller, easier, safer, better quality.  So my question really is - Do I have to use a BB with the Church CA11's with this device or does the device light them up?  If not then I think it's on my Santa's list.
Cheers
Andy


Offline unidentified

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2018, 07:00:04 AM »
That must have been a looong Steven Wilson show. The M10 is renowned for its battery life.

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2018, 07:45:46 AM »
Did you run the mikes through a Battery Box?

Yes, my mics are powered by an external box. It's a Naiant tinybox. Do a Google image search to get an idea of what it is.

I have a Sony M10 with Church Ugly Battery Box and Church CA11 Cardioids - only thing I don't like about the M10 is it's size, risk of metal detection and the fact I have to buy a new pair of Duracells every concert for fear of them running out mid show.

Try good NiMH rechargeables with over 2000 mAh. They will last for over a day and you won't have to pollute the environment by using throw-away batteries.

Battery boxes are a pain in the ass - from a stealth point of view they can be hard to explain

I've never had to explain anything - because nobody ever saw any of my rig.

So my question really is - Do I have to use a BB with the Church CA11's with this device or does the device light them up?  If not then I think it's on my Santa's list.

I can't test this as I don't have Church mics, but I would guess that the plug-in voltage the A10 provides is not enough for your mics (you probably won't find a small recorder that can do that).

In my opinion, the Church Ugly Battery Box and the mics are as small as rigs get these days. It should be possible to get that into any show.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 07:47:56 AM by Sebastian »
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

Recordings:
Live Music Archive | DaD Torrents | TTD Torrents | Etree Torrents

Offline chk

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2018, 08:40:37 AM »
Believe this is it, marketed here in the USA as ICD-SX2000...
On sale at B&H for $150 for the next 15hrs. Scoop em up!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1305530-REG/sony_icd_sx2000_high_resolution_portable_audio.html

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2018, 09:46:24 AM »
I am now officially confused about the A10 and whether it's an upgrade or just a rebranding of this:

http://designingsound.org/2017/05/15/sony-icd-sx2000-review/

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2018, 09:51:16 AM »
Believe this is it, marketed here in the USA as ICD-SX2000...
On sale at B&H for $150 for the next 15hrs. Scoop em up!

Actually, the ICD-SX2000 is an older model that has been around for a while:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177488

The A10 is a different recorder. Is has a slightly different button layout as well. The A10 has the power/hold switch on the same side as the input and the SD card slot, the SX2000 has the switch on the other side.

The PCM-A10 is marketed by Sony USA as, well, the PCM-A10:
https://www.sony.com/electronics/voice-recorders/pcm-a10
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 09:52:49 AM by Sebastian »
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

Recordings:
Live Music Archive | DaD Torrents | TTD Torrents | Etree Torrents

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2018, 01:54:21 PM »
Thanks, Sebastian. Guess I'll wait for the A10 to be available somewhere other than Best Buys in New Jersey:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/voice-recorders/pcm-a10/buy

Offline Zeppelinmad

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2018, 04:33:23 PM »
Did you run the mikes through a Battery Box?

Yes, my mics are powered by an external box. It's a Naiant tinybox. Do a Google image search to get an idea of what it is.

I have a Sony M10 with Church Ugly Battery Box and Church CA11 Cardioids - only thing I don't like about the M10 is it's size, risk of metal detection and the fact I have to buy a new pair of Duracells every concert for fear of them running out mid show.

Try good NiMH rechargeables with over 2000 mAh. They will last for over a day and you won't have to pollute the environment by using throw-away batteries.

Battery boxes are a pain in the ass - from a stealth point of view they can be hard to explain

I've never had to explain anything - because nobody ever saw any of my rig.

So my question really is - Do I have to use a BB with the Church CA11's with this device or does the device light them up?  If not then I think it's on my Santa's list.

I can't test this as I don't have Church mics, but I would guess that the plug-in voltage the A10 provides is not enough for your mics (you probably won't find a small recorder that can do that).

In my opinion, the Church Ugly Battery Box and the mics are as small as rigs get these days. It should be possible to get that into any show.

Thanks Sebastian,

All clear.  You are quite correct - the Church gear is small - and I've never been busted - but that doesn't stop me worrying about it!  Going to a show out here in Kangaroo Land is not cheap - seeing an act like Steven Wilson is $125, seeing someone like Roger Waters is $250-400 depending on where you want to be.  Last thing you want when you've shelled out those amounts is getting politely asked to leave the venue!! OR worse- getting zapped by a metal detector and not even getting in...  So far, the main venues here in Oz don't have walk through metal detectors as they do in airports - just hired agency labour waving wands at you as you go through.  With the recent events though I'm guessing it's only a matter of time before we're taking our belts off, dropping our phones into trays and walking through gates.  I question the quality of the wands - and the staff they employ to wave them - I walked in to Roger Waters last year at the Rod Laver and was "wanded" - I was carrying my phone, had my PCM M10 behind my belt buckle just in case, wires running up and down my back, battery box in my pocket,  etc - nothing registered on the wand.  My tactic is to not be first in line and not be last in line - be in the "everyone keen to getting in crowd, security bored, big crowds waiting at the gates, time"- by this point they are just keen to get everyone through.  If you're first in line they are super thorough, if you're last in line the same.....

I will definitely be checking out the batteries you mention  - I made a mistake last time by putting in NEW but cheap AA batteries into the PCM - I turned the PCM on once seated - probably 45 minutes before the show started (I don't like messing about - turn it on, check the levels as the show kicks off, lock the device switch and leave well alone until I'm out of the venue - with the occasional check of levels during loud bits).  It was a 3 hour show (with interval) and it took another 20 minutes to get out at the end and into the carpark - so I'm guessing the PCM was running 4 hours - and the screen was blank and the device not responding to key strokes when I got to the car.  Gave me a shock..

I've, in the past, taken the gear into the show and then "set up" in the bathrooms - but it's not really ideal and if there's no trap available not really practical.  I prefer to rig up at home and walk in ready to go - but this means wires etc in place for agency staff to detect using wands !!!  Not sure wires would trigger one - but my wires run down my back - hard to explain if they did trigger a wand....

Maybe I need to go back to setting up at the show - wires in pockets next to phone and PCM, battery box secreted and hope for the best....

Or maybe I'm just over thinking it and security wands and never going to be an issue with the amount of metal in the wires / battery box...

Thanks for all your info - the other thing I like about the A10 is it looks more like a phone than the M10 - a quick wave at a 55 year old agency security staff and I don't think they'd question it....

Cheers
Andy

Offline robeti

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2018, 05:18:04 PM »
Can't believe some people stress about stealth audio so much.

I stealth audio and camcorder video at the same time. 2 full rigs. Including monopod.

Audio only is a joke.
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2018, 05:22:48 PM »
If you're only getting 4 hours of record time from an M10 with brand-new batteries, something is very wrong. Running plug-in power will eat up the batteries somewhat faster, but I wouldn't think that much faster.

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2018, 01:43:29 AM »
Can't believe some people stress about stealth audio so much.

I stealth audio and camcorder video at the same time. 2 full rigs. Including monopod.

Audio only is a joke.

yeah being assauted by security guards was enough for me to stay low pro

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2018, 02:02:35 PM »
Can't believe some people stress about stealth audio so much.

I stealth audio and camcorder video at the same time. 2 full rigs. Including monopod.

Audio only is a joke.

Says the taper who only has to run AT>deck.
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2018, 03:49:39 PM »
Can't believe some people stress about stealth audio so much.

I stealth audio and camcorder video at the same time. 2 full rigs. Including monopod.

Audio only is a joke.

Says the taper who only has to run AT>deck.

-I always use a preamp or battery box.
-I've recorded stealth with a pair of full bodies naks as well.

Audio only is a joke. Always.
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2018, 04:46:56 PM »
Can't believe some people stress about stealth audio so much.

I stealth audio and camcorder video at the same time. 2 full rigs. Including monopod.

Audio only is a joke.

Says the taper who only has to run AT>deck.

-I always use a preamp or battery box.
-I've recorded stealth with a pair of full bodies naks as well.

Audio only is a joke. Always.

Since I rarely watch video no reason for me to run video and I seriously doubt you are running video from dfc in front of the board where audio sounds best.  Running audio only where you can safely run video is a joke, that I will agree.  The ideal situation is for someone to run video where it is best and someone to run the best audio and then combine in post IMHO. 

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2018, 04:32:07 AM »
Since I rarely watch video no reason for me to run video and I seriously doubt you are running video from dfc in front of the board where audio sounds best.  Running audio only where you can safely run video is a joke, that I will agree.  The ideal situation is for someone to run video where it is best and someone to run the best audio and then combine in post IMHO. 

Don't feed the troll.
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #76 on: December 02, 2018, 06:28:47 AM »
Hmm.  This isn't normally a forum where people get cranky with each other.

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2018, 12:52:20 PM »
Hello Tapers!
I am here for longer as an occasional reader, but from now on with an active account, so I’d like to say “Hello” first to all in the forum.  :)

I bought a PCM-A10 last week and I am not complete sure what to think about it. So I like to prepare a small review but this will take a bit longer than my post right now. I provide you just with my thoughts and first impressions. Sebastian already posted good infos on it and I like to add mine.
Pros:
  • The PCM-A10 is Gorgeous! It’s light, easy to use and has a great design. This separates it from Roland and very much from the Zoom devices (in my eyes, for sure ;) )
  • Handling and menu-operations are great, it turns on in a second and setting input level is fast and easy, so is the hold button.
  • compared to the ICD-SX2000 it can record 96/24 onto the SD Card (I don’t have the Sx2000, but it seems to be a limitation of the device).
  • For the few worrying about metal detectors. I was passing one with the A10 in the pocket and it was no issue.

Cons:
  • First Impression of the Build-In Mic is mediocre, not bad, but also not very detailed and with a well recognizable noisefloor*. To judge this, I like to post some samples.
  • Headphone amp is not impressive. It is not suited for demanding Headphones I guess*.
After all, Design and Usage are perfect! But I still struggle on the Sound part*.

I lent a PCM-M10 from a friend now to have some testings. It’s good to see the comparison from Sebastian with the Roland R-07. From there it looks like the Line IN quality is comparable. After a first Test I had the impression that the Line IN from the M10 is still better.

*I have to clarify, I own and love a Sony PCM-D100, so maybe I am spoiled on the sound part and I expected too much from this little device. I quite comparing it with the A10.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2018, 04:18:21 PM »
Thanks for that!  It will be interesting to hear samples when you have time - including from the built in mics, even though many people don't use them, some people do sometimes.

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2018, 02:22:57 PM »
I just uploaded a recording made with the A10 to the LMA:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=188838.0

Several others are on Dime:
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-browse.php?search=%2Bsony+%2B%22pcm-a10%22
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Offline Lutzow

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2018, 06:58:48 PM »
I just uploaded a recording made with the A10 to the LMA:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=188838.0

Wow, seems there is no issue with the Line IN at all! :D Thanks for sharing, I just listen to it..

I did some Tests and put some sample files on the following page:
http://www.luzz.de/sub/audio/a10/index.html
It's very improvised but i didn't know were to put audio files best on the web.

What I can tell is that LineIN works good so far. I figured out that there is a slight drop in low frequencies below 200hz. It's linear so a frequency of about 80hz has about 1-1,5db less gain. Compared to the M10, the M10 doesn't have this behaviour but therefore it adds some high frequencies noise above 25khz. ;)

I will add some Field recordings in the next days. Would love to test it with a good pluginpowered mic to judge the buildin Mic amp. Sadly my external Mic is very poor, I look if there is any difference to the M10 and D100 with it.
 

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2018, 09:40:19 PM »
Hello Tapers!
I am here for longer as an occasional reader, but from now on with an active account, so I’d like to say “Hello” first to all in the forum.  :)

I bought a PCM-A10 last week and I am not complete sure what to think about it. So I like to prepare a small review but this will take a bit longer than my post right now. I provide you just with my thoughts and first impressions. Sebastian already posted good infos on it and I like to add mine.
Pros:
  • The PCM-A10 is Gorgeous! It’s light, easy to use and has a great design. This separates it from Roland and very much from the Zoom devices (in my eyes, for sure ;) )
  • Handling and menu-operations are great, it turns on in a second and setting input level is fast and easy, so is the hold button.
  • compared to the ICD-SX2000 it can record 96/24 onto the SD Card (I don’t have the Sx2000, but it seems to be a limitation of the device).
  • For the few worrying about metal detectors. I was passing one with the A10 in the pocket and it was no issue.

Cons:
  • First Impression of the Build-In Mic is mediocre, not bad, but also not very detailed and with a well recognizable noisefloor*. To judge this, I like to post some samples.
  • Headphone amp is not impressive. It is not suited for demanding Headphones I guess*.
After all, Design and Usage are perfect! But I still struggle on the Sound part*.

I lent a PCM-M10 from a friend now to have some testings. It’s good to see the comparison from Sebastian with the Roland R-07. From there it looks like the Line IN quality is comparable. After a first Test I had the impression that the Line IN from the M10 is still better.

*I have to clarify, I own and love a Sony PCM-D100, so maybe I am spoiled on the sound part and I expected too much from this little device. I quite comparing it with the A10.

Walkthroughs or wands?  That bit of news is positive.

Offline Lutzow

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #82 on: December 05, 2018, 02:46:19 AM »

  • For the few worrying about metal detectors. I was passing one with the A10 in the pocket and it was no issue.


Walkthroughs or wands?  That bit of news is positive.
It was a Walkthrough, I prepared myself to explain my Mp3 Player, but there was no alarm nor question. In another pocket was my mobile, so I assume the detection is comparable and less (because of its size).

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #83 on: December 05, 2018, 03:43:24 AM »
It was a Walkthrough, I prepared myself to explain my Mp3 Player, but there was no alarm nor question. In another pocket was my mobile, so I assume the detection is comparable and less (because of its size).

Was that in Berlin? I have a friend who actually set that one off with his MBHOs/tinybox/DR-2d recently, but apparently it was still easy to get that stuff inside.
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Offline Lutzow

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #84 on: December 05, 2018, 06:29:19 AM »
Was that in Berlin? I have a friend who actually set that one off with his MBHOs/tinybox/DR-2d recently, but apparently it was still easy to get that stuff inside.

Yes it was in Berlin in the O2/Mercedes Arena, you got me. I made an rare exception! :D

BTW, Sebastian, did you test your A10s Mic IN with a PluginPowered Mic directly? Any thoughts how it is compared to other recorders you own?
I mean I am still blown from your the Decemberist recording. It demonstrate what a very good mic can do. This changes more than the tiny bits on the recorder I suppose.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 07:56:06 AM by Lutzow »

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #85 on: December 05, 2018, 04:02:06 PM »
Yes it was in Berlin in the O2/Mercedes Arena, you got me. I made an rare exception! :D

BTW, Sebastian, did you test your A10s Mic IN with a PluginPowered Mic directly? Any thoughts how it is compared to other recorders you own?
I mean I am still blown from your the Decemberist recording. It demonstrate what a very good mic can do. This changes more than the tiny bits on the recorder I suppose.

It's good to know several people have successfully beat the walk-throughs at the AEG-operated venues in Berlin. ;)

No, I haven't tested the A10 with a plug-in powered mic as I don't really run one. Sorry.
But if you like the Decemberists recording, wait for the Ryley Walker set from the same festival. :-)
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2018, 01:44:50 AM »

  • For the few worrying about metal detectors. I was passing one with the A10 in the pocket and it was no issue.


Walkthroughs or wands?  That bit of news is positive.
It was a Walkthrough, I prepared myself to explain my Mp3 Player, but there was no alarm nor question. In another pocket was my mobile, so I assume the detection is comparable and less (because of its size).

good job, good to know. 

Offline dogmusic

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2018, 11:25:44 AM »
Well, I've been waiting for this to show up in N. America. Now the product page has been dropped from the Sony USA website. Maybe some kind of FCC problem with the Bluetooth?
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Offline jj69

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #90 on: December 08, 2018, 12:17:01 AM »
What I can tell is that LineIN works good so far. I figured out that there is a slight drop in low frequencies below 200hz. It's linear so a frequency of about 80hz has about 1-1,5db less gain.

What? Seriously? That is not good!

How did you measure/test this?

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #91 on: December 08, 2018, 05:04:23 AM »
Here's one with a bit more low end. :-)
https://archive.org/details/ryleywalker2018-11-17.mk41v.flac16

I did run the same signal into both the A10 and M10 for a few shows and really couldn't make out a difference.
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Offline shpy

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #92 on: December 09, 2018, 05:47:23 AM »
can somebody has info about max SPL ?

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #93 on: December 09, 2018, 06:28:54 AM »
can somebody has info about max SPL ?

From the manual:

"Maximum sound pressure (built-in microphones): 123 dBSPL"
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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #94 on: December 09, 2018, 01:11:11 PM »
What I can tell is that LineIN works good so far. I figured out that there is a slight drop in low frequencies below 200hz. It's linear so a frequency of about 80hz has about 1-1,5db less gain.

What? Seriously? That is not good!

How did you measure/test this?

First I estimated this when I looked at the waveform of some low synthesizer signals below 200hz.
But now I tried to do a test wich might show it a bit better. It's "Pixelpeeping" and I think Sebastian is right when he says, that there is no audible difference between them , and in the end, That's what counts.
Anyway here is what I did:

First I prepared a signal test with the sine wave generator in Audacity.

This is the Waveform of the testtone.

www.luzz.de/sub/audio/a10/image/FR_Ref.PNG  Please use this link to open the image in full resolution.
First three tones (I forgot what frequency exactly, but according to audition they are ca. 35Hz, 3K and 14k) followed by a the range from 30Hz up to 25KHz.

This file I played in Audition with the Roland UA-M10 LineOut into the three recorders available here:

1. PCM-D100 with dedicated Line IN:

www.luzz.de/sub/audio/a10/image/FR_D100.PNG
As you see, there are some flaws, but the signal is pretty clean and linear, I come up with a closer look later.

2. PCM-M10 with dedicated Line IN:

www.luzz.de/sub/audio/a10/image/FR_M10.PNG
looks linear to!

3. PCM-A10 in LineIN Mode:

www.luzz.de/sub/audio/a10/image/FR_A10.PNG
If you look at the first Test Tone (35Hz) it has less gain than the rest of the file, about -2db. Also the overall signal is a bit "wavy" and not as linear as it is in the M10 or D100.
This looks strange but is no issue at all, for Recording, this would be easy to EQ if someone takes notice of it at all.



Now some zoomed-in images of the point where the frequency range starts.

1. PCM-D100:

www.luzz.de/sub/audio/a10/image/FR_D100_Detail.PNG
Surprise, on the D100 there is not a drop in the levels, but there is some kind of "bend" in the waveform, I can't explain this, maybe someone can ;). It could also be the Soundcard producing it. The "Bend" is over at about 100hz and it shows up linear from this point on. The deviation of the bend is close to nothing and it's funny to talk about. Also the D100s signal is almost clean.

2. PCM-M10:

www.luzz.de/sub/audio/a10/image/FR_M10_Detail.PNG
The M10 also has this kind of "bend", not worth mentioning. In the signal there are some unplanned frequency signals. Look at the Scale in wich level region they are, so they shouldn't bother any bats ;).

3. PCM-A10:

www.luzz.de/sub/audio/a10/image/FR_A10_Detail.PNG
On the A10 you see, there is a small Level drop, It's below 40Hz, from 40Hz up it reacts just as the two other family members above.

My conclusion:
this is all theory, and it will not bother you in real-recording-life. It seems that the said frequency response in the datasheet of the A10 is actually true, and there is no cut below 40Hz but there is a small drop wich you can  EQ if there is a need for. Maybe the news is, that the frequency response applies to the LineIN mode also and not only for the internal mics.

Beside this, the A10 is great to handle, small and light. This is a much bigger difference to other portable recorders, than this sound issue is. And I have to admit I might did some mistakes in this test, I am not a professional tester  :cheers:





Offline unidentified

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #95 on: December 09, 2018, 10:24:24 PM »
Many thanks! 

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #96 on: December 10, 2018, 12:05:51 AM »

www.luzz.de/sub/audio/a10/image/FR_D100_Detail.PNG
Surprise, on the D100 there is not a drop in the levels, but there is some kind of "bend" in the waveform, I can't explain this, maybe someone can ;) . It could also be the Soundcard producing it. The "Bend" is over at about 100hz and it shows up linear from this point on. The deviation of the bend is close to nothing and it's funny to talk about. Also the D100s signal is almost clean.
...(snip)

My conclusion:
this is all theory, and it will not bother you in real-recording-life. It seems that the said frequency response in the datasheet of the A10 is actually true, and there is no cut below 40Hz but there is a small drop wich you can  EQ if there is a need for. Maybe the news is, that the frequency response applies to the LineIN mode also and not only for the internal mics.

Beside this, the A10 is great to handle, small and light. This is a much bigger difference to other portable recorders, than this sound issue is. And I have to admit I might did some mistakes in this test, I am not a professional tester  :cheers:
I sure appreciate your efforts! I think the "bend" you see might just be the difference between what we expect to see when we look at a sine wave, and what Audacity makes when you have it sweep frequencies upwards.


Can you provide the file so I can test my PCM-M10, PCM-D50, Tascam DR-70D and my SD Mixpre6?
:-)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 12:07:36 AM by morst »
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Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #97 on: December 10, 2018, 05:31:30 AM »
The frequency range of my microphone capsules starts at 40 Hz. Maybe that's the reason why I couldn't make out a difference.
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

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Offline Lutzow

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #98 on: December 10, 2018, 08:15:02 AM »
Can you provide the file so I can test my PCM-M10, PCM-D50, Tascam DR-70D and my SD Mixpre6?
:-)
Sure,
take it from here:
frequencyrange_testfile (wav ca.30MB)
Would be very intersting to see if there are differences between your recorders.

The frequency range of my microphone capsules starts at 40 Hz. Maybe that's the reason why I couldn't make out a difference.
And even when they start at 20Hz it would be not a big deal ;) If I listen to your recordings, I think there is not much missing.


Offline Twenty8

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2018, 03:46:15 PM »
As of two weeks ago Best Buy was listed as carrying the A10 storefront, but not online.
Now I can't find anything that says they carry it.
Just as I was about to go out and grab one...
Sorta frustrating that it has barely made its way into the US market.

(Yes I know B&H carries it, but I have a Best Buy gift card)

Offline gewwang

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2018, 04:23:42 PM »
Speaking of B&H, they charged my credit card today for $245.51 and changed the status of the order to "In stock, order sent to warehouse".

Offline mitchellm

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #101 on: December 20, 2018, 05:02:27 PM »
Speaking of B&H, they charged my credit card today for $245.51 and changed the status of the order to "In stock, order sent to warehouse".

Great news. I'd love to hear your impressions when you receive it. I'll probably purchase after the New Year, but would like a little more info/impressions. I would probably mainly use the A10 with external spoken voice mike (e.g. Shure SM58 or plugin powered lav mic), sometimes with binaural mics for ambient sounds, and a few times with other mics for live music.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 05:29:15 PM by mitchellm »

Offline willndmb

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #102 on: December 24, 2018, 11:23:28 AM »

  • For the few worrying about metal detectors. I was passing one with the A10 in the pocket and it was no issue.


Walkthroughs or wands?  That bit of news is positive.
It was a Walkthrough, I prepared myself to explain my Mp3 Player, but there was no alarm nor question. In another pocket was my mobile, so I assume the detection is comparable and less (because of its size).
if your phone didn't trip it then the setting was prob really low.
Handhelds and walk through here trip on my iPhone all day but when out of town recently didn't trip a walk through
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
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Offline gewwang

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #103 on: December 28, 2018, 11:19:56 AM »
Speaking of B&H, they charged my credit card today for $245.51 and changed the status of the order to "In stock, order sent to warehouse".

Great news. I'd love to hear your impressions when you receive it. I'll probably purchase after the New Year, but would like a little more info/impressions. I would probably mainly use the A10 with external spoken voice mike (e.g. Shure SM58 or plugin powered lav mic), sometimes with binaural mics for ambient sounds, and a few times with other mics for live music.

Haven't had a chance to do anything with it yet other than unbox it. Assuming it sounds good line in with a sonosax, I will definitely be replacing the mixpre3 with the sax>pcm-a10 based on size alone for stealthing. This thing is tiny.

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #104 on: December 31, 2018, 07:23:02 AM »
Over the holidays I finally got around to some preamp noise measurements. I used the method suggested by Sound Devices with a 150Ω resistor between input signal and ground.

I first calibrated a few recorders (A10, M10, MixPre-6) to the same input levels using a signal generated by the Zoom F8's tone generator. I then replaced the input with a 150Ω resistor to emulate the load of a typical microphone. I recorded a few seconds and measured the resulting WAVE file's peak value.

Here are the results:

150Ω test results:
Description| Input Calibrated To| Value
A10 Mic Input| -4.0 dB| -80.0 dB
M10 Mic Input| -4.0 dB| -72.3 dB
MixPre-6 Mic Input 1| -4.0 dB| -92.2 dB
A10 Line Input| -10.0 dB| -81.6 dB
M10 Line Input| -10.0 dB| -75.0 dB
MixPre-6 Line Input 1| -10.0 dB| -92.2 dB

This shows that the A10's inputs are a little bit quieter than the M10's. Unsurprisingly, the MixPre-6 is in a whole different league, especially when compared to the M10.

Edit note: An earlier version of this post contained incorrect measurement values. These have been corrected.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 05:19:54 AM by Sebastian »
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

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Offline dactylus

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #105 on: December 31, 2018, 10:57:32 AM »
^^
Thanks Sebastian!
hot licks > microphones > recorder



...ball of confusion, that's what the world is today, hey hey...

Offline mjwin

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #106 on: December 31, 2018, 01:27:49 PM »
Over the holidays I finally got around to some preamp noise measurements. I used the method suggested by Sound Devices with a 150Ω resistor between input signal and ground.

Thanks for that. A very reassuring result! The M10-A10 are so close that they probably use the same analog front end for the mic-in.

With the smallest handheld recorders, when it comes to sound quality & low noise , Sony seem to have always had the edge over the competition, way back through MiniDisc, the pro walkman D6 & beyond. Olympus popped up for a brief while with the LS10-11, but now seem to have reverted to their home ground of voice recorders.

Offline Twenty8

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #107 on: December 31, 2018, 02:16:09 PM »
Now if this thing would just crack the US market to retailers outside of B&H...

Offline DSatz

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #108 on: December 31, 2018, 11:53:49 PM »
Lutzow, in message #94 you pointed out a strange "bend" in the waveforms recorded by the D100 and M10. That is a small, negative DC offset which slowly corrects itself. I have no idea what causes it, though.

Sebastian, do you still have the WAV files from your input noise tests? I'd like to see them if I may. The enormous degree of difference that you found among the recorders is quite odd.

--best regards
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 11:56:14 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #109 on: January 01, 2019, 05:17:33 AM »
Sebastian, do you still have the WAV files from your input noise tests? I'd like to see them if I may. The enormous degree of difference that you found among the recorders is quite odd.

As always, David is right. I seem to have made a mistake with my original measurements. Some of the WAVE files contained peaks at the start or end of the files. I have no idea what caused them (probably some kind of handling noise), but when analyzing only the part of the audio without those peaks, the results are way more consistent. Therefore, I have edited my original post to reflect the corrected values. Could everyone who quoted those please edit their posts, so no future reader will get confused?

Anyway, I just finished a new test with a 220Ω resistor (which is the output impedance of my tinybox) and the new results are listed below. I also tested the MixPre's Aux input, which seems to be significantly louder than all the other recorders.

Please note that the dB values CAN NOT be compared between tests because the recorders are newly calibrated for each test. What can be compared are the relative differences between recorders in each test.

220Ω test results:
Description| Input Calibrated To| Value
A10 Mic Input| -6.0 dB| -85.3 dB
M10 Mic Input| -6.0 dB| -75.9 dB
MixPre-6 Mic Input 1| -6.0 dB| -99.6 dB
MixPre-6 Aux Input 5| -6.0 dB| -65.4 dB

I have uploaded all files from both tests here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L7-jZ-l5_YRqOYLaKM8DBZTEBKK9oKKz

Please note that for the A10 and M10 recordings, only the left channel was connected to the load resistor. Therefore, only the results of the left channels are significant for the tests. Please ignore the right channels.
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

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Offline willndmb

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #110 on: January 01, 2019, 05:53:46 PM »
Sebastian, do you still have the WAV files from your input noise tests? I'd like to see them if I may. The enormous degree of difference that you found among the recorders is quite odd.

As always, David is right. I seem to have made a mistake with my original measurements. Some of the WAVE files contained peaks at the start or end of the files. I have no idea what caused them (probably some kind of handling noise), but when analyzing only the part of the audio without those peaks, the results are way more consistent. Therefore, I have edited my original post to reflect the corrected values. Could everyone who quoted those please edit their posts, so no future reader will get confused?

Anyway, I just finished a new test with a 220Ω resistor (which is the output impedance of my tinybox) and the new results are listed below. I also tested the MixPre's Aux input, which seems to be significantly louder than all the other recorders.

Please note that the dB values CAN NOT be compared between tests because the recorders are newly calibrated for each test. What can be compared are the relative differences between recorders in each test.

220Ω test results:
Description| Input Calibrated To| Value
A10 Mic Input| -6.0 dB| -85.3 dB
M10 Mic Input| -6.0 dB| -75.9 dB
MixPre-6 Mic Input 1| -6.0 dB| -99.6 dB
MixPre-6 Aux Input 5| -6.0 dB| -65.4 dB

I have uploaded all files from both tests here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L7-jZ-l5_YRqOYLaKM8DBZTEBKK9oKKz

Please note that for the A10 and M10 recordings, only the left channel was connected to the load resistor. Therefore, only the results of the left channels are significant for the tests. Please ignore the right channels.
thanks
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline aaronji

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #111 on: January 02, 2019, 07:19:46 AM »
^^ Thanks for doing these tests and posting your results, Sebastian!  Very interesting.  Just to clarify: I assume that the MixPre aux-in test was performed using the mic setting?  Also, I assume phantom/PIP was always off?

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #112 on: January 02, 2019, 04:09:31 PM »
I assume that the MixPre aux-in test was performed using the mic setting?  Also, I assume phantom/PIP was always off?

All your assumptions are correct. :-)
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

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Offline DSatz

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #113 on: January 02, 2019, 07:48:16 PM »
Sebastian, thank you, but:

[1] I am most assuredly not always right.

[2] See #1 (because I am most assuredly right about #1).

[3] Your revised figures look a lot more like what I would expect. Also, they agree with the measurement results that I got with an M10 a few years ago, in which the 24-bit recording setting gave AT MOST MAYBE 1 dB lower noise than the 16-bit setting. (Which is a real cognitive trap, since with the recorder set to "24 bits", a person might well think that it was OK to record with maximum peaks at -15 or even lower ...)

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 08:37:25 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline peterjcm5

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #114 on: January 03, 2019, 12:53:39 PM »
There is some great technical information about the A10 in this post and I sure do appreciate it.  I am also wondering if anyone has any feedback from actual field recording experience with the A10?  I understand it just came out, especially in the US, and am wondering what some of the more experienced tapers (I am a newbie to the game) think of the unit.  I am very curious how tapers (if anyone has) compare it to the M10 and Roland R-07 for practical purposes and in terms of the different features?  I am trying to decide on what recorder to buy and am biding my time until I get a better understanding of what the A10 is capable of.  Thank you everyone, I really appreciate this site, especially as I enter into this "hobby".  Peace.

Offline Sevoflurane

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #115 on: January 03, 2019, 02:14:47 PM »
There is some great technical information about the A10 in this post and I sure do appreciate it.  I am also wondering if anyone has any feedback from actual field recording experience with the A10?  I understand it just came out, especially in the US, and am wondering what some of the more experienced tapers (I am a newbie to the game) think of the unit.  I am very curious how tapers (if anyone has) compare it to the M10 and Roland R-07 for practical purposes and in terms of the different features?  I am trying to decide on what recorder to buy and am biding my time until I get a better understanding of what the A10 is capable of.  Thank you everyone, I really appreciate this site, especially as I enter into this "hobby".  Peace.

A few pages back, there are samples from shows. I cannot tell the difference between sources. I am looking forward to grabbing this unit!

Offline Niels

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2019, 05:47:24 AM »
  • Setting recording levels on the Sony A10 is way easier than on the Roland R-07. On the Roland, once you push either the + or - button, a big popup appears on the screen with the current level value, obstructing the view of the level meters. The Sony keeps the level meters visible while adjusting levels. However, I must say that I still prefer the old PCM-M10's level wheel. It's way easier to make big adjustments with the wheel than to use discrete steps via the +/- buttons. On the other hand, for stealth situations it's nice to be able to engage the hold feature for the levels.

Sebastian - thanks for the comparison.

I'm assuming from context that you say that levels can be adjusted on the unit while recording - is that correctly understood? (I am asking because it was my understanding that ICD-SX2000 would need to be paused prior to making level adjustments on the unit - it was my impression that adjustments could only be made live via the APP).

Another question: When making a Level change on the A10, can you see the level value on the A10 screen so you know how much you "turned the knob"?

Thanks
Roland R-07, FEL Communications Clippy EM172, Shure MV88, iRIG PRE HD, RØDE M1, RØDE Link RX/TX, RØDE Lav.

Offline Sebastian

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2019, 03:48:12 PM »
I'm assuming from context that you say that levels can be adjusted on the unit while recording - is that correctly understood?

Yes. They can be changed while recording, both on the unit and via the app.

Another question: When making a Level change on the A10, can you see the level value on the A10 screen so you know how much you "turned the knob"?

Yes. It has a level scale that goes from 0 (off) to 30 (full gain). It also has a segmented level meter. Next to that, the current peak value is displayed as a decimal number (together with the usual "over" indicator). All of these values are displayed during recording and when changing the level setting. Actually, the screen layout does not change when adjusting levels - only the level scale value that is displayed does.
Schoeps { MK6 | MK41V } > NBob actives > {Naiant Tinybox v2.0 | Naiant IPA | Naiant PFAs} > {Zoom F8 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d | Olympus LS-P1}

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Offline Lutzow

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #118 on: January 10, 2019, 04:55:57 AM »
... I am also wondering if anyone has any feedback from actual field recording experience with the A10? ...

Hi Peter,
I actually use it mostly for field recording, I am not into taping shows so much and I use the build in mics mostly. So the same way I use my PCM D100. And I compared it to the M10 too. (here are to Samples from the Beginning http://www.luzz.de/sub/audio/a10/index.html ) I own it now for over a month and I can tell you, the key feature of the A10 is size and weight!
From day one on I carry it with me in my pocket and I also started to use it as a dictaphone as well. Its great to have the feeling of beeing "prepared" if some interesting sounds appear.
I also considered the R-07 and the A10 looks much better and is even smaller. Beside the better usability in terms of leveling, display and startup. Also it is fun to adjust the mic angles (doesn't change much ;) ). Additionally the guy in the shop told me the R-07 has a delay when monitoring the recording via headphones and this turned me off.
Another big point for the Sonys (D M A) is Battery Life. As long as the A10 charges via USB it is pretty hard to bring it near 50% power till you reconnect it to get the files from the device.

So the Pros are:
- Great mobility! (Size and Weight)
- Display
- Usability
- Design (I love the Design! :) )
- Battery life

In my Opinion I see some big cons using it for Field Recording too. First of all, the build in Mic quality is not impressive. Its good and it might be even better than the R-07 or the Zoom H1/H2 (I don't know) build-ins. Second, the Headphone amp is weak, again this can be equal to others in this range, like the Zooms or the R-07. I can only compare to the Zoom H5 and I didn't like the Headphone amp either ;). The D100 is in both points on another planet. Also the M10s build in Omnis are better for Ambience Sounds and have a lower noise floor.

Cons:
- Build in Mics are mediocre (In the Field I think it's great if you use some good PiP Mics)
- Handling noise is an issue
- Weak headphone amp

Best
Lutz

Offline SoundHolic

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Re: New SONY PCM-A10
« Reply #119 on: January 14, 2019, 06:55:55 AM »
My A10 just arrived.

Before sell my M10, I did some simple test A10 and M10.

# Rec level
The A10 has 1~30 of input level.
2.5 of M10 is similar with 2 of A10 under Mic-IN setting.
4.0 of M10 is similar with 1 of A10 under Audio(Line)-IN setting.
I think the M10 has a wider range of gain control.

# Unity gain (?)
I'm not sure this is correct way to measure the unity gain.
Wav file (1K tone, -12dB) > M10 (Line-OUT) > A10 (Audio-IN)
Level 7 : -13.08dB
Level 8 : -11.58dB

# Plug-in Power
Like the M10, the A10 could power the PIP mics when set Mic-in not Audio-in.
AKG CK61s > Nbob Actives > Naiant IPA > Sony A10
Countryman B3s > Sony A10

 

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