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Offline WiFiJeff

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AES report
« on: October 22, 2018, 08:26:54 PM »
I visited the exhibit floor last week at the Audio Engineering Society meeting at the Javits Center in NY.  Lots of focus on ambisonics.

1) Zoom had one of the H3 VR mic/recorders on view, but I couldn't get a date for when they will be out (this month?).  I was surprised by how tiny the device actually is, someone here suggested stealthing it in a witch's hat (because of the shape), but from what I saw you could put it in a party hat for a medium-sized dog.

2) Core Sound was showing the Octomic, attached to a Zoom F8.  Selling point is the careful calibration (and possibility of recalibration) for accurate imaging, but unlike the Zoom no easy stereo or binaural mix.  Phantom power on all 8 inputs recommended.

3) Zylia showing their 19-mic (all omnis) in a slightly bigger than softball-sized housing, with software to record and mix.  It records to a computer, I have a neat Ockel Windows 10 tiny machine I would love to try it with, hyper portable.  They were showing the review in the current issue of Recording, which got me excited enough to check it out on Indiegogo.

I asked DPA about a possible 4-channel d:vice MMA-A, one of the designers was there.  Not currently doable, no cell phone will put out the power to run two sets of mics and two preamp/AD pairs.  Suggested linking 2 phones (with 2 separate MMA-As) with Bluetooth link, Apogee software will do this.

IZotope told me that the Rx7 Repair Assistant is designed to handle clipping, clicks etc., not the kind of noise suppression I was hoping to learn to use it for. 

Lots of companies returning to exhibit after longish absences: Sound Devices, Sonosax, Grace Design.


Jeff

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Re: AES report
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2018, 12:38:41 AM »
I asked DPA about a possible 4-channel d:vice MMA-A, one of the designers was there.  Not currently doable, no cell phone will put out the power to run two sets of mics and two preamp/AD pairs.  Suggested linking 2 phones (with 2 separate MMA-As) with Bluetooth link, Apogee software will do this.

If you go back tomorrow, tell the DPA folks that we all carry USB power packs everywhere!??!?!
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: AES report
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2018, 08:59:02 AM »
The d:vice gets power and send audio bits through a single wire.  The phone can't put out enough watts to run 4 channels, even if you had the Hoover Dam in your backpack I don't see it would do much good.

Offline Ronmac

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Re: AES report
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2018, 09:11:23 AM »
Professional products are usually conceived, designed and marketed with a perceived use case in mind. Sometimes they can be "bent" a bit to another purpose. It appears this one cannot.

Sometimes a one-trick-pony is just that.

Perhaps they will develop a 4 channel version in the future, keeping in mind it will need a supplemental power source.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: AES report
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2018, 10:26:56 AM »
A d:vice which serves as USB battery source for both phone and preamp/converter is the obvious answer!

Four channels is probably as far as they would ever take this yet isn't sufficient, and I don't believe they'd ever make a 6ch version.  Instead, just make it possible to use multiple 2 or 4 channel d:vices on the same USB bus for those who want 6 or 8ch.  Flat rectangular phone sized / proportioned please, with a second USB port to chain to the second (or even 3rd) d:vice.  Scalable.

A product of my imaginary world, yet totally doable.


Thanks for the report Jeff.
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Offline dactylus

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Re: AES report
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2018, 11:43:04 AM »

Thanks Jeff!  Did Sonosax have a SX-M2D2 mic pre on display? 
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: AES report
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2018, 01:18:51 PM »
I think it was just a mock-up of the box.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: AES report
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2018, 09:41:29 PM »
19 omnis in close proximity??  How would that work?  Omnis are, well, omnidirectional at low frequences, more directional at high frequencies.  I hate to think of the messed up imaging from 19 of them, unless the processing can make some kind of silk purse of what would be expected to be a sow's ear.

Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: AES report
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2018, 11:12:50 PM »
http://www.zylia.co/press.html

I'll report on it when I get mine.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: AES report
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2018, 10:00:45 AM »
19 omnis in close proximity??  How would that work?

Differential sum/delay processing is integral to these systems.  The key word in searching for information on how this works is beamforming.  It uses carefully manipulated phase cancellation and reinforcement to create higher order patterns with more tightly focused primary directional lobes than can be achieved with single first-order microphones. The approach applies to both sensing (microphone arrays) and generation (loudspeaker arrays). The tradeoff for the increased directionality is increased noise, spatial aliasing, and funky off-axis behaviour.  With a few exceptions, these types of beamforming arrays have historically been used primarily for measurement purposes and teleconferencing applications rather than music recording.

These systems typically use omnidirectional nodes for the most part, and can either be designed with arrays of those elements embedded in a surface (like the Zylia, and the 32 element Eigenmike) or suspended in free space. 3-dimensional arrays are usually either embedded in a rigid sphere or wire-frame supporting arrays. Planar arrays usually have the elements arranged in either a regular grid pattern, spiral arms, or randomly arranged.

Zylia's older brother, the 32 omni element Eigenmike-



The Trinnov SRP system is one of the few marketed for high quality surround recording of music, providing high-order directivity across the horizontal plane using eight omni elements in a sort of horse-shoe arrangement which I speculate is designed to increase order directivity in the forward direction more than other directions. Would you like that with 8 DPAs or 8 Schoeps omnis?





When this is applied to higher order ambisonics, channel count rises rapidly with increasing order.
1st order ambisonics requires 4 channels for full periphony (all directions), 3 for a single plane (horizontal only, as in double mid/side)
2nd order ambisonics requires 9 for full periphony, 5 for single plane
3rd order requires 16 for full periphony, 7 for single plane
etc..

Check out this 64 node single plane grid array of B&K measurement microphones-



I suppose we should update the Surround Sound Microphones list thread with the Zylia and OctoMic.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 10:02:50 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: AES report
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2018, 04:50:42 PM »
how are these crazy many-channel recordings encoded and played back?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: AES report
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2018, 05:24:58 PM »
The massive arrays are typically for engineering applications like noise analysis, identifying emission locations and such, where the sound being sampled isn't played back but analyzed in other ways.  The cooler systems combine video with the audio data, essentially overlaying color gradations over the image to indicate the locations of sound emission.

The Trinnov thing is designed for 5 channel surround output, can probably do 7, dunno.

A target market for a lot of the newer higher-order ambisonic microphones is periphonic sound for virtual reality gaming and video with more precise localization than can be achieved with 1st order ambisonics.  I think Youtube now supports 2nd order ambisonic sound for VR video if I recall correctly.   But like 1st order ambisonic microphones which use 4 channels, you can derive a virtual stereo microphone pair of of whatever pattern you want (including patterns more directional than 1st order supercardioid) pointing in any direction, with any inclusive angle between them... but always limited to coincident stereo unless you use two of these microphones.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: AES report
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2018, 05:50:03 PM »
Ok, there's clearly more to it than meets the eye, thanks for rich info!  I gues the majorty installation base of beamforming mics is the Alexa and Google Home devices.  And the Anki Vector robot who uses 4 on his back to enable him to swivel instantly to look at whoever addresses him.

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Re: AES report
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2018, 08:52:54 PM »
first pic in guts post looks like the thing skywalker trains on when he first gets his lightsaber
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: AES report
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2018, 06:49:14 PM »
totally
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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