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Author Topic: This tapers dream machine mic....  (Read 1249 times)

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Offline Nick's Picks

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This tapers dream machine mic....
« on: October 26, 2018, 09:45:04 AM »
here is what would be most cool....and i'm sure it will come to pass.

an "all in one" recorder with decent preamp and A/D that records on to a microSD.    Have the whole contraption built into the body of a stereo MS mic with a fixed figure 8 and a fixed omni-card-hyper  (via switch).   Have the entire platform built into a very reasonable sized mic....say no larger than the studio proj. LSD2  (more more like the AKG 42x )....
I know the new Zoom is sort of this...only with more recording flexibility...but I'd like to see something with some nice mic design and good caps.    If it was HQ and cost $2k, it would be a winner.

Offline b9audio

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2018, 10:30:01 AM »
Not a good solution. Digital products evolve slowly without notice, and eventually you'll find the device in your hand is obsolete, and you cannot get any compatible accessories.
A good mic will survive much longer time, and you can use those made in the '60, still works with current devices.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 11:24:24 AM by b9audio »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2018, 10:51:32 AM »
Hey Nick,

The way to avoid that problem would be to make it modular- your envisioned stereo Mid/Side microphone using a 5 pin XLR output, plus a two channel "plug on" recorder using a 5 pin XLR input (in place of currently available inexpensive mono plug-on recorders which use a 3 pin XLR input)
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline ero3030

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2018, 09:23:37 PM »
HHB mic with SD recorder built in?  Think I remember something like that.   Like nic's idea. 
needin some fishhead music!

" known for f**king up a good weekend on a Thursday nite "

Offline DSatz

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2018, 09:58:12 PM »
Mr. Picks, unless you can devise a mechanically switched single-diaphragm capsule with those three patterns (good luck!), it will have to use the dual-diaphragm, electrically switched approach--which can't give you a good omni pattern at high frequencies or a good cardioid pattern at low frequencies. Better to use a fixed figure-8 "S" with an attachment for various interchangeable, single-diaphragm capsules for the "M" microphone.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2018, 08:42:47 AM »
you guys are a hypothetical buzz killer

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2018, 06:34:09 PM »
you guys are hypothetical buzz killer realizers.

The possibility of a Mid/Side microphone with a fixed fig-8 Side and interchangeable Mid capsules as described above was brought up recently in the B9Audio microphones thread.. And the manufacturer was the first to respond to your post here.

B9 currently makes a compact side-address SD fixed-Blumlein-pair stereo microphone. The idea of the proposed microphone would be basically the same housing, but with the top fig-8 capsule made removable, such that a capsule other than fig-8 could be attached and the microphone used as an end-address Mid/Side microphone. 

Granted the capsules would be then arranged one directly in front of the other in the housing, as in some Mid/Side shotgun microphones (and within the windscreen section of some other Mid/Side mics), so the capsules would not be as fully coincident in the horizontal plane as an arrangement that places one directly above the other, but that might not be overly objectionable in practice.  It sure would make for a very versatile single-point stereo microphone. 

You'd then just need to add your plug-on XLR stereo recorder.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline b9audio

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2018, 10:07:32 AM »
you guys are hypothetical buzz killer realizers.

The possibility of a Mid/Side microphone with a fixed fig-8 Side and interchangeable Mid capsules as described above was brought up recently in the B9Audio microphones thread.. And the manufacturer was the first to respond to your post here.

B9 currently makes a compact side-address SD fixed-Blumlein-pair stereo microphone. The idea of the proposed microphone would be basically the same housing, but with the top fig-8 capsule made removable, such that a capsule other than fig-8 could be attached and the microphone used as an end-address Mid/Side microphone. 

Granted the capsules would be then arranged one directly in front of the other in the housing, as in some Mid/Side shotgun microphones (and within the windscreen section of some other Mid/Side mics), so the capsules would not be as fully coincident in the horizontal plane as an arrangement that places one directly above the other, but that might not be overly objectionable in practice.  It sure would make for a very versatile single-point stereo microphone. 

You'd then just need to add your plug-on XLR stereo recorder.

Ha ha, realizer
I might have a even better solution, and provide more possibilities.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2018, 10:52:52 AM »
in my dream...., it's a vertical stereo mic about the size of an AKG 426 (or smaller C34 style).     I dont care about the caps being single or dual diaphragm.   Whatever needs to be done so that it is switchable (polar pattern)   
Internal LiON battery...efficient design so you get a  reliable recording time out of it...and a micro SD slot right on the mic.   Bluetooth app to start/stop/pause the recording....and bingo bango !


Offline DSatz

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2018, 07:19:06 PM »
Gutbucket, in stereo shotgun microphones, the capsules for M and S (in every example I've seen) are at the same point within the housing behind the interference tube. Instead of a unitary figure-8 capsule, a matched pair of side-facing (outward-facing) cardioid capsules is used, whose outputs are summed "in antiphase" to form a figure-8 pattern. These capsules are positioned on either side of the central, forward-facing capsule that joins to the interference tube.

In the attached "exploded view" of a Neumann RSM 190 or 191 (same mike, different matrix box), the capsule assembly is the cube-like piece in the middle (resistance is futile, so maybe let's try capacitance instead?) labeled with position numbers 5 and 2.

The whole way that M/S works REQUIRES the path length from the center of the direct sound sources to the "M" and "S" microphones to be the same, since the reinforcement vs. cancellation between the M and S channels is what produces the L and R signals. The effect of any discrepancy in distance would be inversely proportional to the sound wavelengths. At low frequencies there is room for some error. But stereo localization depends greatly on upper midrange content (say, from 2 to 5 kHz), where an inch is a significant fraction of a wavelength.

--best regards

P.S.: Nick's Picks, you only think you don't care whether the "M" capsule is single- or dual-diaphragm. Dual-diaphragm is fine for the patterns "beyond cardioid" (supercardioid, hypercardioid, figure-8), but a dual-diaphragm cardioid is only a cardioid in the midrange (and if it's small, perhaps at higher frequencies as well, depending on some other factors). At low frequencies the pattern invariably "blooms out" toward wide cardioid. That's OK in normal studio use, where the added room pickup at low frequencies (say, on a vocal soloist) can increase the sense of roundness and warmth. (Probably the reason large-diaphragm condensers have a reputation for "big" sound in the low frequencies is that nearly all large-diaphragm condenser mikes use dual-diaphragm capsules.)

But in a stereo microphone, whether X/Y or M/S, that characteristic is the opposite of what you want, because it causes the eventual L/R output to "blend toward mono" at low frequencies. That was useful in the era of stereo LPs, since difference information translates into vertical groove modulation, which had to be carefully controlled. But it's not at all desirable in the era of digital meda. The usual main problem with coincident stereo recordings is a lack of spaciousness, and a widening cardioid(-ish) pattern at low frequencies goes directly to the heart of the problem and makes it significantly worse. A good single-diaphragm cardioid, on the other hand, will still be a real cardioid at 50 Hz and even lower.

Attached is a set of polar diagrams for a classic dual-diaphragm microphone (Neumann U 47), which had pattern settings for "omni" and "cardioid". The ones for the "cardioid" setting are on the left side of the diagram; notice how the pattern spreads out more, the farther down you go in frequency. Not all dual-diaphragm microphones have it this bad, but this type of capsule has many, many imitators among manufacturers who aim at the studio market.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 07:58:12 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2018, 10:04:21 PM »
Gutbucket, in stereo shotgun microphones, the capsules for M and S (in every example I've seen) are at the same point within the housing behind the interference tube. Instead of a unitary figure-8 capsule, a matched pair of side-facing (outward-facing) cardioid capsules is used, whose outputs are summed "in antiphase" to form a figure-8 pattern. These capsules are positioned on either side of the central, forward-facing capsule that joins to the interference tube.

In the attached "exploded view" of a Neumann RSM 190 or 191 (same mike, different matrix box), the capsule assembly is the cube-like piece in the middle (resistance is futile, so maybe let's try capacitance instead?) labeled with position numbers 5 and 2.

Thank you as always!

Perhaps I'm reading the assembly drawing you posted incorrectly, but it looks to me like the two back-to-back cardioid elements are positioned as close together as possible to form the bi-directional Side capsule assembly (Side signal assimilation cube?) with the Mid capsule and attached interference tube just forward of that.  This as assembled photo seems to show the same, if the cylindrical gold portion above the cube is the Mid capsule-



The above from a post over at GS which came up in a search, which claims an approximate 1" displacement between Mid and Side elements.  However, I have more trust your authority on these matters! https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=11469618&postcount=5
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline illconditioned

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2018, 10:28:44 PM »
Excellent work.  Love seeing the innards, drawings and photos.By the way, my Beyerdynamic MC833 MS mic has three identical capsules as well.
Question: Do any of the classic MS mics (Shure VP4, Sennheiser 816, AT835ST, etc) use a single S capsule behind/infront of a C capsule?I know Sony MS907 uses this design.


Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline b9audio

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Re: This tapers dream machine mic....
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2018, 10:47:19 PM »
Gutbucket, in stereo shotgun microphones, the capsules for M and S (in every example I've seen) are at the same point within the housing behind the interference tube. Instead of a unitary figure-8 capsule, a matched pair of side-facing (outward-facing) cardioid capsules is used, whose outputs are summed "in antiphase" to form a figure-8 pattern. These capsules are positioned on either side of the central, forward-facing capsule that joins to the interference tube.

In the attached "exploded view" of a Neumann RSM 190 or 191 (same mike, different matrix box), the capsule assembly is the cube-like piece in the middle (resistance is futile, so maybe let's try capacitance instead?) labeled with position numbers 5 and 2.

The whole way that M/S works REQUIRES the path length from the center of the direct sound sources to the "M" and "S" microphones to be the same, since the reinforcement vs. cancellation between the M and S channels is what produces the L and R signals. The effect of any discrepancy in distance would be inversely proportional to the sound wavelengths. At low frequencies there is room for some error. But stereo localization depends greatly on upper midrange content (say, from 2 to 5 kHz), where an inch is a significant fraction of a wavelength.

Regarding the related location of the mid and side capsules, I totally agree with you. The ideal location shall be as close as possible, that is lateral align instead of axial align. Stereo shotgun, such as RSM191, MKH418S, Sanken CSS50... are all axial align capsules. Schoeps insist not to produce shotgun until 2004 that is another story, which I agree from technical aspect. Schoeps still doesn't provide stereo shotgun, instead they provide very good solution, such as MS kit, and DMS kit.
For a series of MS microphones I am planning, I am not so keen for axial align layout. I might come up with a very good solution that is lateral align, and flexible enough for other layout applications.

 

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