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Author Topic: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer  (Read 1912 times)

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Offline nak700s

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Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« on: December 26, 2018, 03:59:54 PM »
OK, I know I'm wearing my glasses...but I forgot how to balance the potentiometers on the 744, and can't find it in the manual.  :bawling:

Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline rippleish20

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Schoeps CMC6 (MK22's, MK41's) / AKG C480B (ck61, ck63, ck8) / DPA (4061) / Neumann KM100 (AK40, AK50) / Audio Technica AT4050ST/ AT853s  (cardiod, omni) / CA-14 (cardiod) / CA-11 (Omni)
KCY 250/5 and 250/0 > naiant PFA or IPA or Nbox 
Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Mixpre-3 /Roland R-07 /Tascam DR-100mkIII / d:vice

Offline nak700s

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Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline rippleish20

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2018, 05:03:53 PM »
It wasnt meant to be funny, I misread your comment.
Schoeps CMC6 (MK22's, MK41's) / AKG C480B (ck61, ck63, ck8) / DPA (4061) / Neumann KM100 (AK40, AK50) / Audio Technica AT4050ST/ AT853s  (cardiod, omni) / CA-14 (cardiod) / CA-11 (Omni)
KCY 250/5 and 250/0 > naiant PFA or IPA or Nbox 
Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Mixpre-3 /Roland R-07 /Tascam DR-100mkIII / d:vice

Offline nak700s

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2018, 05:17:33 PM »
It wasnt meant to be funny, I misread your comment.

Fair enough...I kind of though that was the case, it's just that the entire day has been going like this  :-[
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2018, 05:59:50 PM »
Joel:

Can you say more about what you mean by "balance the potentiometers"?

You want to know where to set gain on the 744 when using an external preamp?
Or you're running single ended cables into the balanced XLR inputs?
Or you're having trouble getting L and R levels to match?

which do you mean?
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline nak700s

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2018, 06:21:47 PM »
Joel:

Can you say more about what you mean by "balance the potentiometers"?

You want to know where to set gain on the 744 when using an external preamp?
Or you're running single ended cables into the balanced XLR inputs?
Or you're having trouble getting L and R levels to match?

which do you mean?

Sorry, it's been a trying day.  I believe my pots are a little off and would like to re-balance them so they are even with their respective positions on the dial.

Because I don't use a pre-amp a lot of the time, I often do have questions regarding the settings of the pre (SD 302) in conjunction with the 744.  As I've been doing it, I am just kissing the red ("0") on the pre, and then adjusting as necessary on the 744 to get my desired peaks.  If there's another or better way, I would be interested in learning.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2018, 06:35:16 PM »
Ah, I understand. I can't help you with the former, but would humbly suggest running them linked wherever they are and fine tuning L/R Balance in post, but I know you're more of a "get it right the first time" kind of taper. Hopefully someone else with a 7XX can help.

With the latter, I'd advise running the 744 at 0 or whatever is closest to "unity gain" (which I know doesn't actually exist, but is still useful as a heuristic model) and using the gain knobs on the external pre entirely. It seems to me that one would use the SD 302 in order to get some transformer distortion "warmth," so why not push it. It isn't like a digital stage where a hard 0 is clipping....
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline Walstib62

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2018, 06:44:31 PM »
Joel:

Can you say more about what you mean by "balance the potentiometers"?

You want to know where to set gain on the 744 when using an external preamp?
Or you're running single ended cables into the balanced XLR inputs?
Or you're having trouble getting L and R levels to match?

which do you mean?

Sorry, it's been a trying day.  I believe my pots are a little off and would like to re-balance them so they are even with their respective positions on the dial.

Because I don't use a pre-amp a lot of the time, I often do have questions regarding the settings of the pre (SD 302) in conjunction with the 744.  As I've been doing it, I am just kissing the red ("0") on the pre, and then adjusting as necessary on the 744 to get my desired peaks.  If there's another or better way, I would be interested in learning.

You might be over thinking the process just a bit. Why do you feel the need to use an external preamp with a 744? I would think it is a perfectly good stand alone recorder. Being the same OEM, the first stages of both units must be similar to the extent that the 302 would be superfluous. Field recording is challenging enough as is. Why make it harder?

Offline nak700s

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2018, 06:46:24 PM »
Ah, I understand. I can't help you with the former, but would humbly suggest running them linked wherever they are and fine tuning L/R Balance in post, but I know you're more of a "get it right the first time" kind of taper. Hopefully someone else with a 7XX can help.

With the latter, I'd advise running the 744 at 0 or whatever is closest to "unity gain" (which I know doesn't actually exist, but is still useful as a heuristic model) and using the gain knobs on the external pre entirely. It seems to me that one would use the SD 302 in order to get some transformer distortion "warmth," so why not push it. It isn't like a digital stage where a hard 0 is clipping....

As for the balancing, I will inquire further.  I have done it a long time ago, but can't remember how, and think it's a bit off now.  I have been balancing in post, it just frustrates me when taping.  Not a big deal, but as you say, I am "get it right the first time" kind of taper.

Interesting, because in many situations, I am running the 744 at 0 while the input is completely controlled by the 302.  I didn't think it should be that way.  I can't complain about the results, but it struck me as wrong, since I had the 744 at 0.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline nak700s

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2018, 06:50:25 PM »
Joel:

Can you say more about what you mean by "balance the potentiometers"?

You want to know where to set gain on the 744 when using an external preamp?
Or you're running single ended cables into the balanced XLR inputs?
Or you're having trouble getting L and R levels to match?

which do you mean?

Sorry, it's been a trying day.  I believe my pots are a little off and would like to re-balance them so they are even with their respective positions on the dial.

Because I don't use a pre-amp a lot of the time, I often do have questions regarding the settings of the pre (SD 302) in conjunction with the 744.  As I've been doing it, I am just kissing the red ("0") on the pre, and then adjusting as necessary on the 744 to get my desired peaks.  If there's another or better way, I would be interested in learning.

You might be over thinking the process just a bit. Why do you feel the need to use an external preamp with a 744? I would think it is a perfectly good stand alone recorder. Being the same OEM, the first stages of both units must be similar to the extent that the 302 would be superfluous. Field recording is challenging enough as is. Why make it harder?

Excellent question.  The answer is this:  As you are aware, the 744 is a 4-track recorder.  When I only use 2 microphones, I do not use the 302 (pre-amp).  I do like to play though and use 4 or 5 mics sometimes.  When I use more than 2 mics, I need a pre.  At the upcoming Phish shows, I plan to use 4 mics and blend them in post.  For that I need the pre. 
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2018, 06:57:44 PM »
Interesting, because in many situations, I am running the 744 at 0 while the input is completely controlled by the 302.  I didn't think it should be that way.  I can't complain about the results, but it struck me as wrong, since I had the 744 at 0.

Running it this way essentially uses no gain at the 744. Which is what you want, given that the pre you've selected is a good one, and you bought because you like its sound.

You might even like the sound of the 302>744 better than the 744 pre's alone when running two channels only, given that the 302 uses Lundahl LL-1576R transformers and the 744 is a transformerless design.

This is all academic though. Run it the way it's easiest to do so and causes the least amount of stress. 4 nights of MSG is hard enough as it is....

I, as someone who does more post processing, tend to prefer to use a Transformerless pre and if I want the "sound" of distorting transformers (or tubes, or Neve consoles, etc.) to add that via a plugin in post where i can control everything.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline Walstib62

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2018, 07:16:55 PM »
Joel:

Can you say more about what you mean by "balance the potentiometers"?

You want to know where to set gain on the 744 when using an external preamp?
Or you're running single ended cables into the balanced XLR inputs?
Or you're having trouble getting L and R levels to match?

which do you mean?

Sorry, it's been a trying day.  I believe my pots are a little off and would like to re-balance them so they are even with their respective positions on the dial.

Because I don't use a pre-amp a lot of the time, I often do have questions regarding the settings of the pre (SD 302) in conjunction with the 744.  As I've been doing it, I am just kissing the red ("0") on the pre, and then adjusting as necessary on the 744 to get my desired peaks.  If there's another or better way, I would be interested in learning.

You might be over thinking the process just a bit. Why do you feel the need to use an external preamp with a 744? I would think it is a perfectly good stand alone recorder. Being the same OEM, the first stages of both units must be similar to the extent that the 302 would be superfluous. Field recording is challenging enough as is. Why make it harder?

Excellent question.  The answer is this:  As you are aware, the 744 is a 4-track recorder.  When I only use 2 microphones, I do not use the 302 (pre-amp).  I do like to play though and use 4 or 5 mics sometimes.  When I use more than 2 mics, I need a pre.  At the upcoming Phish shows, I plan to use 4 mics and blend them in post.  For that I need the pre.

Ah! That info was missing. Now I understand. If there is a utility in the machine for setting digital gain it likely involves the tone generator. You'd have to read the manual.

Offline nak700s

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2018, 07:18:03 PM »
Interesting, because in many situations, I am running the 744 at 0 while the input is completely controlled by the 302.  I didn't think it should be that way.  I can't complain about the results, but it struck me as wrong, since I had the 744 at 0.

Running it this way essentially uses no gain at the 744. Which is what you want, given that the pre you've selected is a good one, and you bought because you like its sound.

You might even like the sound of the 302>744 better than the 744 pre's alone when running two channels only, given that the 302 uses Lundahl LL-1576R transformers and the 744 is a transformerless design.

This is all academic though. Run it the way it's easiest to do so and causes the least amount of stress. 4 nights of MSG is hard enough as it is....

I, as someone who does more post processing, tend to prefer to use a Transformerless pre and if I want the "sound" of distorting transformers (or tubes, or Neve consoles, etc.) to add that via a plugin in post where i can control everything.

I've never noticed a distorted sound when using the 302.  In fact, I think it sounds pretty clean. I will say though, when I use it, it is always used in conjunction with either other microphones going directly into the 744 (like it will be at Phish) or with a soundboard patch, which is usually the case.  I think I use the 302 the most when I'm running 3 mics into it, plus 2 channels from a soundboard.  The 3 microphones (blending one of the microphones into the right and left tracks of the 302...generally bass and drums) are for better sounding instruments in the recording, while gaining some clarity from the soundboard, but being more interested in the clean and strong vocals...from the board.  I'm happy with my results, but I'm also willing to listen and try something different.  Experimenting is fun, which I get to do a lot with local bands.  I never would have thought I was doing it "correctly" when I have no flexibility with the controls on the 744...so this is a happy revelation.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline nak700s

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Re: Balancing Sound Devices 744T Potentiometer
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2018, 07:20:41 PM »
Joel:

Can you say more about what you mean by "balance the potentiometers"?

You want to know where to set gain on the 744 when using an external preamp?
Or you're running single ended cables into the balanced XLR inputs?
Or you're having trouble getting L and R levels to match?

which do you mean?

Sorry, it's been a trying day.  I believe my pots are a little off and would like to re-balance them so they are even with their respective positions on the dial.

Because I don't use a pre-amp a lot of the time, I often do have questions regarding the settings of the pre (SD 302) in conjunction with the 744.  As I've been doing it, I am just kissing the red ("0") on the pre, and then adjusting as necessary on the 744 to get my desired peaks.  If there's another or better way, I would be interested in learning.

You might be over thinking the process just a bit. Why do you feel the need to use an external preamp with a 744? I would think it is a perfectly good stand alone recorder. Being the same OEM, the first stages of both units must be similar to the extent that the 302 would be superfluous. Field recording is challenging enough as is. Why make it harder?

Excellent question.  The answer is this:  As you are aware, the 744 is a 4-track recorder.  When I only use 2 microphones, I do not use the 302 (pre-amp).  I do like to play though and use 4 or 5 mics sometimes.  When I use more than 2 mics, I need a pre.  At the upcoming Phish shows, I plan to use 4 mics and blend them in post.  For that I need the pre.

Ah! That info was missing. Now I understand. If there is a utility in the machine for setting digital gain it likely involves the tone generator. You'd have to read the manual.

I tried that last night, but couldn't find it anywhere in the manual.  Ugh!  I will poke around again tonight.  It isn't that much off, just enough to annoy me.  It's an easy fix in post, I just like things to make sense during recording.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Fun times: 3 Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD744T + 2 Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

 

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