Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: 24 bit v 16 bit  (Read 1052 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EmRR

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 157
    • ElectroMagnetic Radiation Recorders
Re: 24 bit v 16 bit
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2018, 02:21:33 PM »
Digital gain is free, sometimes a lower gain setting in a recording path is quieter than a higher one.  I'd be more worried about maxing signal levels if I were transferring out of a recorder in the analog domain. 

24 versus 16 is a real world difference of 25-30dB dynamic range, depending on the converter.  Recording at -20dBFS in 24 is still more dynamic range than 0dBFS in 16.....and ya can't successfully record at 0dBFS, hardly at -6dBFS in unknown situations.   Bring -20 up to -1 with digital gain in post, still more dynamic range than the 16 capture. 

16 versus 24 within a 32float scenario; it's about what the 32float does to the bottom bit of the 16, which is 8 higher than the bottom bit of the 24.  It's where the dither and quantization error lives.  That's further buried in the 24, and therefore is also after processing.  If you get into forensic fixes and noise reduction with something like RX7, there's a lot more in a 24 bit capture for the algorithms to work with.  It keeps the artifacts of the medium much further out of the way, regardless of the dynamic range of the intended capture. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Tascam DR-701D, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (31)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 2619
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit v 16 bit
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2018, 08:21:40 PM »
[message text deleted; I had wrongly contradicted another member of the forum, who then politely pointed out my mistake]
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 09:19:34 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline EmRR

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 157
    • ElectroMagnetic Radiation Recorders
Re: 24 bit v 16 bit
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2019, 05:04:00 AM »
I think you're confusing 24 bit with 20 bit, 4 bits is 24.08dB theoretical. 

16 bit theoretical dynamic range 96.33dB
24 bit theoretical dynamic range 144.49dB
48.16dB theoretical difference

The measured input noise of my MOTU 16A AD gives a worst case result in the audible band of -135dBFS at 20kHz, around -143dBFS at 1kHz.  I've looked at it myself, that's not a number from a manual, that number is worse.   It's about 15dB worse in the previous generation MOTU 2408mkIII. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Tascam DR-701D, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (31)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 2619
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit v 16 bit
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2019, 06:42:29 AM »
EmRR, you're right, I was thinking 4 extra bits rather than 8 when I wrote the above. Sorry! Major mistake on my part.

I'll go back and edit my earlier message now to indicate that it was wrong.
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline tim in jersey

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3433
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit v 16 bit
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2019, 10:32:26 PM »
caitjim, yes. But the "conservative" doesn't mean "anything goes" (its opposite!). You still want your maximum peak levels to be as high as possible without quite touching 0 dB.

You can say that a "conservative" level-setting strategy has worked well if your highest peak levels at the live event were -6 dB, maybe even -8 or -10 depending on your particular equipment. But if the peaks are down around (say) -12 or -15, the original recording will almost certainly contain unnecessary extra noise.

That's because each analog stage of your recorder's circuitry has its own noise floor. If your signal is low enough to expose the noise floor of ANY stage in your recording equipment, some unnecessary noise will be added to your recorded signal. Then when you normalize the levels later on, that noise will be amplified along with the desired signal.

--best regards

I tend to disagree. If you're up at the near -6 range, it is much easier to brickwall. One of my tricks to get optimum levels is ask the musicians, in the soundcheck, to play briefly at the loudest they will be playing that set. If you set to below that, you'll be good as gold. If you don't, and it's a band that starts quiet then builds to a loud crescendo, you're going to go over pretty easy. I amp up from -12 all the time, and it's not noticeable to me....(ymmv).

Agree.

Offline EmRR

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 157
    • ElectroMagnetic Radiation Recorders
Re: 24 bit v 16 bit
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2019, 10:52:17 AM »
EmRR, you're right, I was thinking 4 extra bits rather than 8 when I wrote the above. Sorry! Major mistake on my part.

I'll go back and edit my earlier message now to indicate that it was wrong.

No worries, we all do it sometimes!
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Tascam DR-701D, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline tim in jersey

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3433
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit v 16 bit
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2019, 01:41:31 PM »
[message text deleted; I had wrongly contradicted another member of the forum, who then politely pointed out my mistake]

Someone admitting a mistake? And then taking the blame for it? Unheard of.

Cheers to you, DSatz.  :cheers:

Offline John Willett

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1536
  • Gender: Male
  • Bio:
    • Sound-Link ProAudio
Re: 24 bit v 16 bit
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2019, 11:50:14 AM »
Will I really miss much quality wise if I record in 16 bit as opposed to 24 bit as I'm going to compress it to MP3 anyhow.

Never record in 16-bit if you can record in 24-bit.

16-bit is fine as a delivery format, but 24-bit is far better for a master recording.

You have a much better headroom with 24-bits - ie: you set 0VU as -18dBFS (or -20dBFS) with 24-bit recording, but only -12dBFS with 16-bit recording. You need a good headroom to avoid any problems with inter-sample peaks that could cause problems, but may nit register on the meters.

You will then have the best available master and the end result, even if MP3 (yuk) will be the final result.

Offline morst

  • Archivist: Camper Van Beethoven & Cracker
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2994
  • ISO ALL archival Cracker / CVB / Monks Of Doom etc
    • Soundscape Preservation Society
Re: 24 bit v 16 bit
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2019, 05:21:07 PM »

Never record in 16-bit if you can record in 24-bit.

16-bit is fine as a delivery format, but 24-bit is far better for a master recording.
Words to live by!

I am finally delivering in 16 after years of resisting.
Teams: Neumann, Bay Area Tapers, Multitrack, Pioneertown Tapers, Mac Geeks, Cassette Masters, Poster Collectors, Alumni of teams St Louis, Upper Midwest & Milwaukee / Southern Wisco

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.131 seconds with 36 queries.
© 2002-2019 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF