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Author Topic: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6  (Read 6359 times)

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Offline dallman

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« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 01:23:00 PM by dallman »
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Offline muj

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2019, 02:18:14 AM »
..so are the mic pres and the ad conversion better than sd7xx series?



Offline noahbickart

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2019, 04:36:40 AM »
I don’t know if I could hear the difference between the mixpre6 and 744t preamps, though the new ones measure "better."

Andyjah and I did a comp of the mixpre6 and the sonosax sx-r4 a few years ago, and while some preferred one over the other and almost everyone heard a difference, the consensus was that they were in the same league. I suspect the same would happen in a mixprex vs 7XX comp as well.

In any event, I'm suspicious about people who claim "night and day" differences between professional pre-amp "sound." Transducers and placement are going to affect the sound to a significantly higher degree. As such, I'd pick a deck based on feature set. Unless you need digi in/out, the mixpre series is going to be smaller, have more channels, easier to power, and more. The 7 series is discontinued at this point and outdated tech. Unless you need digi in/out.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline Ronmac

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2019, 09:48:20 AM »
788t and 702t are current products.


Offline jcable77

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2019, 01:22:29 PM »
Same league? Like The Red Sox compared to the Orioles? I like my Mixpre 6 but I dont think Id go that far.

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2019, 03:19:25 PM »
Same league? Like The Red Sox compared to the Orioles? I like my Mixpre 6 but I dont think Id go that far.

https://www.sounddevices.com/products/recorders/702t/specs
https://www.sounddevices.com/products/recorders/mixpre-6/specs

The Red Sox and Orioles have played 57 times in the last 3 seasons. Boston won 36 and Baltimore 21.
2018 Boston Payroll: $240 million; 2018 Baltimore payroll: $150 million

The Sonosax was vastly more expensive with regard to the mixpre6 than the Red Sox were to the Orioles. And yet, in a double blind comparison the inexpensive deck won,

In the poll (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=184892.0), 60% preferred the file which was eventually revealed to be the mixpre6, 22.5% preferred the file which was revealed to be the Sax, and 17.5% said, "No difference or equal quality."

Here's the problem:we don't listen blind.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 03:34:10 PM by noahbickart »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline jcable77

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2019, 04:28:27 PM »
Same league? Like The Red Sox compared to the Orioles? I like my Mixpre 6 but I dont think Id go that far.

https://www.sounddevices.com/products/recorders/702t/specs
https://www.sounddevices.com/products/recorders/mixpre-6/specs

The Red Sox and Orioles have played 57 times in the last 3 seasons. Boston won 36 and Baltimore 21.
2018 Boston Payroll: $240 million; 2018 Baltimore payroll: $150 million

The Sonosax was vastly more expensive with regard to the mixpre6 than the Red Sox were to the Orioles. And yet, in a double blind comparison the inexpensive deck won,

In the poll (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=184892.0), 60% preferred the file which was eventually revealed to be the mixpre6, 22.5% preferred the file which was revealed to be the Sax, and 17.5% said, "No difference or equal quality."

Here's the problem:we don't listen blind.
Touche’ ! Good points. I meant the Orioles and Sox last year, but the stats you pulled up make your point completely. I didnt check out the thread, or the comp, as Im not a big fan of Phish anymore, or Garry, or Shoeps, or MSG really. I know Andy tends to run on the lighter side with more headroom, not a negative statement, but I would think to really get a grasp of the difference in the pre’s I would love to hear a comp of the two really hot as a pair of room mics or drum overheads. Just an opinion, but 100’ away in the “OTS” at msg wouldnt really prove much to me. And again, thats completely just my opinion and not trying to hack anything up. I find my mp6 to be a bit on the light side with not as much depth as my 302 or mix pre D have. I think its the Lundahl’s that Make the difference but Inhonestly cant go any deeper into that technically. The one thing I keep finding about the mp6 is the”flavor” as its called here. It tends to add “flavor” to low mids too much IMO. The other SD gear I have doesnt seem to add as much, or is just more pleasant to my ears. As far as the mp6 sounding better than the 7xx series I found a good statement I kind of agree with on GS. They comped the 744t, 788, and mp3. They rated the  744t first, 788, then mp3.
“Well... my partner said "The MixPre3 would be a great recorder for a beginner, because it makes the performance sound better than it actually is." Not a very flattering comment when judging a recorder

Basically, this recorder had noticeable "smearing" that was particularly present in the low mids. It also had this effect of "smoothing over" finger noise and other subtle transients that, for me at least, give a performance its mojo.

Were the differences huge? Let's put it this way; unless you were a trained audio pro, probably not. Would the MixPre3 suffice? Probably would do just fine for dialog recording--but for my money, I wouldn't use this recorder for professional music recording”. 
  As far as the MP’s being nicer than the RX4 I dont think I could ever really agree with them ever being in the same ballpark. Again just an opinion, but until Andy sells me his Rx4 Ill just have to wait to prove myself right or wrong. Generally speaking sonosax makes a better sounding pre-amp, hands down.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 04:37:40 PM by jcable77 »

Offline jbell

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2019, 05:06:48 PM »
The sax recorder cost thousands more than an MP6 and you will never get $3000 more in better sound quality out of that recorder.  Noah's comp proves that.  I'm not trying to split hairs, but of a lot of what sounds good to one person is personal preference. 
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60V)> Sound Devices Mixpre-6

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2019, 05:19:43 PM »
Hey Noah....  what is your impression of the 02IB compared to the MP6 pre's?

I just re-looked at your sig..  is it supposed to read 02IUB??
If so, I'm not familiar with that variation of VMS.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 05:22:08 PM by yug du nord »
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Offline jbell

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2019, 05:27:01 PM »
I went from a VMS 5U to a Mixpre6 and it is a different sound, but I wouldn't say one sounds better than the other, but different.  It has been so long since I owned the VMS02ib I would have to go back and listen to recordings to comment on sound. 

Hey Noah....  what is your impression of the 02IB compared to the MP6 pre's?

I just re-looked at your sig..  is it supposed to read 02IUB??
If so, I'm not familiar with that variation of VMS.
Microtech Gefell M20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60V)> Sound Devices Mixpre-6

Offline jcable77

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2019, 05:30:39 PM »
The sax recorder cost thousands more than an MP6 and you will never get $3000 more in better sound quality out of that recorder.  Noah's comp proves that.  I'm not trying to split hairs, but of a lot of what sounds good to one person is personal preference.
That whole comp thing was completely irrelevant anyway. The dude asked if the mp6 sounded better than the 7xx series.

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2019, 05:33:17 PM »
In.
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10
Playback: McIntosh MC 2105 > McIntosh MX 130 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2019, 06:00:36 PM »
Hey Noah....  what is your impression of the 02IB compared to the MP6 pre's?

I just re-looked at your sig..  is it supposed to read 02IUB??
If so, I'm not familiar with that variation of VMS.

My impression is that I love it. It makes me feel good about myself and my gear to run a small, Schoeps, kcy only pre (the Schoeps VMS 02iub is the KCY only version of that gear), which integrates well into my rig. It runs forever on AA, fits in my bag perfectly, and makes my signature on ts.com even sexier that it had been before.

Basically, now that I run it, I think my (proverbial) penis is thicker and longer.  :guitarist:  :headphones: :cheers:

But this is exactly my larger point: Despite the fact that I now use the VMS for my "primary" pair of microphones, I'm skeptical that I actually hear a clear, unambiguous, better/worse difference between the mixpre6 and the VMS, or even the littlebox I used to run in its place, especially from an OTS in Madison Square Garden, etc. I might hear some subtle differences, not unlike with the mixpre6 vs. sonosax comp. The consensus there was, that, despite slight personal preference, both sources sounded similar and both very good. Furthermore, we were also listening to two different AD stages. I'm excited to run the VMS because it allows me to run two more microphones into 5/6 in a small unit.

I think what is actually going here is that owners of the 7XX, who (justifiably) love their gear, are loathe to admit that a newer, less expensive, more "pro-sumer" option might compete with their beloved "pro" gear. Conversely, owners of the Mixpre line (like me), who love their gear, are excited to own  something which competes with (beats?) more expensive gear. I can't speak for Andy, but I was relieved that I "preferred" the sound of the deck I own. (For the record, we each preferred the gear we own). But that tells me that it's more about me than the gear.

None of us listens blind. We judge "sound" not only on what our ears hear, but how our brains interpret what we hear. And our brains are affected by things like how much I paid, the brand name, who else runs this gear, how pretty the lights are, etc.

Dsatz is on record here stating that with Schoeps microphones, basically all professionally designed microphone preamplifiers have essentially the same "sound." I like the VMS for all kinds of reasons. It's "sound?" I don't know. But again it makes me happy to run it.

I think there are real reasons to buy a 744t, a Sonosax, a Nagra or a Zoom over the mixpre6. These include: size and shape, powering options, in/out options, number of channels, multiple sd card recording, brand name, resale value, metering, and much more. But none of those things are about pure "sound."

Just as in "Audiophile" circles, and "pro-sound" internet groups, tapers love to tout the "sound" of their gear in comparison with other brands. I do it too. We all do. But I'm really skeptical of claims like this:

As far as the MP’s being nicer than the RX4 I dont think I could ever really agree with them ever being in the same ballpark.... Generally speaking sonosax makes a better sounding pre-amp, hands down.

The comp we did showed definitively that when it comes to "what we do," (use expensive microphones to record PA systems from far away) the Mixpre6 and the Sonosax are indeed in the same ballpark, and, indeed, more people preferred the SD to the Sonosax. That doesn't mean that it's wrong to buy a Sonosax. It's also a great piece of gear. I listen to Andy's tapes all the time.

p.s. this is the best place on the internet, where people with different points of view argue with respect with one another. I'm proud to be part of this community.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 06:11:56 PM by noahbickart »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2019, 06:03:34 PM »
The sax recorder cost thousands more than an MP6 and you will never get $3000 more in better sound quality out of that recorder.  Noah's comp proves that.  I'm not trying to split hairs, but of a lot of what sounds good to one person is personal preference.
That whole comp thing was completely irrelevant anyway. The dude asked if the mp6 sounded better than the 7xx series.

It's not irrelevant, it's a useful analogy. It demonstrated that the mixpre6 is in the same league as much more expensive gear. It thus stands to reason, that the mixpre6 is in the same league as the 7 series, and that any audible differences will be subtle, if you can hear them at all. That's relevant.

Again, if you like the feature set of one deck over another, by all means buy the deck I don't own. It's a free country.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 06:12:51 PM by noahbickart »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline jcable77

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 6
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2019, 08:19:29 PM »
Im going to see if I can get my buddy to use his 744t this weekend and Ill run the mp6 with the same mics. See what we can come up with. Im curious too. Probably wont be from very “far away” but I think It’ll be fun to check out.

 

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