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Author Topic: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)  (Read 6516 times)

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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2019, 05:27:57 PM »

So after I ordered the F6 Trew Audio sent me an email requesting that I send them a copy of my drivers license and picture of the front and back of my credit card which I thought was really strange.

Gave the Nashville location a call and the guy told me they get a lot of fraudulent CC charges for easy to resell high dollar gear so they have a layer of protection. Since I called and talked to them and had the order number handy they let me proceed with my order. 

Then they told me it was back ordered until the end of the month  :facepalm:

I still have one ordered through them and look forward to giving it a go later on this month. I should have an opportunity to do some comps in a live setting right after I get my hands on it.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2019, 09:06:55 PM »

So after I ordered the F6 Trew Audio sent me an email requesting that I send them a copy of my drivers license and picture of the front and back of my credit card which I thought was really strange.

Gave the Nashville location a call and the guy told me they get a lot of fraudulent CC charges for easy to resell high dollar gear so they have a layer of protection. Since I called and talked to them and had the order number handy they let me proceed with my order. 

Then they told me it was back ordered until the end of the month  :facepalm:

I still have one ordered through them and look forward to giving it a go later on this month. I should have an opportunity to do some comps in a live setting right after I get my hands on it.

I'm glad you didn't send them the pictures they requested.  That would have been a huge risk for fraud.  I can't believe they would even ask for something so ridiculous.  One email, ready-made for easy identity theft.


I suppose the July 24th posted date from B&H is what we're going with now.  This unit was supposed to be out in June.  I wonder if they are having manufacturing issues, or if the pre-orders were more than what they expected?
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #77 on: July 12, 2019, 04:55:07 AM »
But it all comes down to the actual implementation. If that is as good as it possibly can be, then we'll have a recorder with no gain control, that by definition can't have a wider dynamic range than the best previous recorder that has a gain control. So before you fall too far in love with this design concept, I suggest that you imagine epoxying the gain control on your best existing recorder to a setting that you know will never allow overload. Do you think that it would always make recordings that are as quiet as you could have made if you'd set your levels specifically for each occasion? I don't think so. And in that case you shouldn't expect more from this recorder.
a much more technical way of saying what many of us have been saying... its a gimmick that offers no real advantage for our application, as any input has a fixed maximum headroom between noise floor, and maximum input level, and any attempts to skirt this with digital fuckery are in the end... digital fuckery.
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #78 on: July 12, 2019, 04:58:56 AM »
Regarding DSatz's post about modulation noise, etc...

So does that rise and fall of the noise floor (I take it modulation noise is the same thing) also happen with a recorder that's recording at a set 16 or 24 bit, with the user able to adjust and set the gain?

not with gain set to a fixed level. what he describes is an artifact of auto-level feature. its analogous to when you see a youtube someone shoots at a concert which sounds fine at low levels but as soon as it gets loud it automatically compresses the sound horrendously so as to not overload the phone. Which is better than horrible brickwalling, but also a clearly audible artifact
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #79 on: July 12, 2019, 05:05:41 AM »

So after I ordered the F6 Trew Audio sent me an email requesting that I send them a copy of my drivers license and picture of the front and back of my credit card which I thought was really strange.


i put in an offer on some consignment gear with them earlier in the month, which they accepted and we agreed that they would invoice me via paypal. they then ghosted me for a week before insisting i send them all that extra info and also requiring me to fill out scan, and email a credit card authorization form. I told them to beat it as i thought it was highly unprofessional to leave me hanging so long, and that i dont want the gear bad enough to be sending my CC info unsecurely to god knows who.
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Offline Walstib62

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2019, 01:54:24 PM »
My impression of the design of this thing (based only on the description given by the Zoom rep) is as follows:
The analog "front end" of this deck has 2 separate preamps per input. The 2 preamps are scaled differently in gain, (1 high, 1 low)) each feeding a 32 bit convertor. These preamps are selectable in 2 gain ranges, depending on the input setting of "line" or "mic"
The total input gain range for either "mic" or "line"  setting has sufficient bandwidth such that no mic or line level source would clip the analog stage. The input device itself would clip before the recorder does. This is why no input gain adjustment is needed.
The dual convertors are then averaged or summed to a single 32 bit file. The advantage to this design is that the low amplitude signals have much higher resolution because it is being converted directly to 32 bit, rather that residing in the lower end of a 24 or 16 bit ADC.
In terms of noise, using this approach certainly reduces noise in the recorder itself. Self noise from a mic will still be there regardless, especially noticeable when the mic is exposed to very low SPL's.
The advantages I see in this machine for field recording is the elimination of clipping in the recorder, and the noise reduction of highly dynamic sound sources. I look forward to being able to plug in a pair of mics or line level device, hit record and let the thing eat with no worry about gain setting. HUGE advantage.  "Digital fuckery"? I don't think so. I think this innovation was likely on the forefront anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes the standard in the not too distant future.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 01:56:33 PM by Walstib62 »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2019, 02:04:50 PM »
The dual convertors are then averaged or summed to a single 32 bit file.

Not averaged or summed but switched.  It is the transparency of the switching between converter streams which is being questioned.

If it is indeed inaudible, the convenience the elimination of trim adjustment represents will be more helpful to tapers than to professional music recordists who can more easily assume or test for correct level setting in advance.   
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Offline Walstib62

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #82 on: July 12, 2019, 02:29:44 PM »
The dual convertors are then averaged or summed to a single 32 bit file.

Not averaged or summed but switched.  It is the transparency of the switching between converter streams which is being questioned.

If it is indeed inaudible, the convenience the elimination of trim adjustment represents will be more helpful to tapers than to professional music recordists who can more easily assume or test for correct level setting in advance.

interesting.  where did you see this? I'd like more information

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2019, 05:22:02 PM »
It is how previous implementations by other manufacturers which achieve the same end result work (Neumann digital mics, Zaxcom "NeverClip", etc.).. and, lacking clear technical information from Zoom to the contrary, the assumed way the F6 works as well.  Without testing to try and determine how it is doing it and if it does introduce a problem or not, this kind of speculation is the best we have to go on at this point.

I have no doubt the Zoom rep you spoke with is well versed on user-level functionality of the recorder, but I doubt he really knows how it is doing this under the hood, nor well versed on the possible repercussions being discussed above.  In any case, is not in a Zoom rep's interest to highlight these kind of potential problems in a yet to be released new product.

As for myself (acknowledging that the border between digital fuckery and digital blessings is a fine line, more gerrymandered than straight) I'm withholding judgement until we have more information.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 05:23:36 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Walstib62

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2019, 06:34:29 PM »
Ah ok! Yes a lot of speculation going on. It will be interesting to see how well this works

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2019, 07:19:57 PM »
The dual convertors are then averaged or summed to a single 32 bit file.

Not averaged or summed but switched.  It is the transparency of the switching between converter streams which is being questioned.

If it is indeed inaudible, the convenience the elimination of trim adjustment represents will be more helpful to tapers than to professional music recordists who can more easily assume or test for correct level setting in advance.

is this similar to the crossover distortion seen in class B amps?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #86 on: July 15, 2019, 03:03:56 PM »
I don't think so.  That's switching between output devices at every zero crossing of the signal.  Whereas this is presumably switching between ADCs when the signal level varies between low sensitivity and high sensitivity modes.   
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Offline udovdh

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2019, 03:51:22 AM »
Any gossip on this dual-ADC F6 technology appearing in a device with jack inputs? ('prosumer')

 

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