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Offline checht

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Order of Operations
« on: May 27, 2019, 05:38:58 PM »
In the ongoing saga of trying to learn about post-production, I'm playing with RX-7 with the aim of removing a few screams/yells from the acoustic parts of a Neil Young show.

Wondering if it's better to normalize first, and bring those levels up, then spectral repair versus spectral repair first then normalize.

Same question about using remove clicks to deal with clapping, and volume envelope to reduce overall applause levels which are 18 db higher than the music.

If I don't knock things down first, I can't bring it up as much by normalizing, so how does that complicate things?

Apologies if I'm asking yet another question with an obvious answer...

Many many thanks in advance

~Chris
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 06:22:47 PM by checht »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Order of Operations
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2019, 08:57:33 PM »
I use RX7 heavily, and to me it sounds like you have the right thought process.

For things I want to eliminate or attenuate, I usually do those first.  So in your situation, use Declick on all of the applause (I highly recommend the Vinyl Record preset for this), and use Spectral Repair for the screamers.  Then normalize.

I usually am recording acoustic concerts in seemingly quiet venues, but with HVAC rumble that my mics always pick up.  So my next operation after the above is to grab a clean noise profile and run Spectral Denoise.
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Offline checht

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Re: Order of Operations
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2019, 10:52:28 PM »
^ thanks a lot, vinyl declick ftw.

Next question: I use Audacity, and wonder about workflow.

1. rx7 on the waves, for declick, scream remove, normalize. Audacity for trimmings, fades, tracking, output of individual songs.
2. Audacity for trimmings, fades, tracking, output of whole wave. rx7  for declick, scream remove, normalize. Audacity for output of individual songs.

Neither seems ideal. Time to finally learn Reaper?

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Offline voltronic

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Re: Order of Operations
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2019, 06:37:38 PM »
^ thanks a lot, vinyl declick ftw.

Next question: I use Audacity, and wonder about workflow.

1. rx7 on the waves, for declick, scream remove, normalize. Audacity for trimmings, fades, tracking, output of individual songs.
2. Audacity for trimmings, fades, tracking, output of whole wave. rx7  for declick, scream remove, normalize. Audacity for output of individual songs.

Neither seems ideal. Time to finally learn Reaper?

I use a Mac...

I am a big fan of all three programs.  Audacity I use far less often.  What it would be useful for in this situation is the Limiter, which is quite good.  Use the Soft Limit preset on your screams.

You definitely want to start using Reaper.  SWS Extensions are a must.  I posted about my workflow with all of this long ago here. 
Once I have the RX operations done, I can edit and export tracks for a 2-hour concert VERY quickly.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Order of Operations
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2019, 06:54:30 PM »
I found my Reaper post.  It actually doesn't include my workflow, but I might post that soon. 

The second link in the post should be enough to convince you that Reaper is awesome for concert editing.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174517.msg2199750#msg2199750
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Offline morst

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Re: Order of Operations
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2019, 01:56:31 AM »
Wondering if it's better to normalize first, and bring those levels up, then spectral repair versus spectral repair first then normalize.
This is a vote to normalize last. Or don't normalize at all, and get your levels as hot as you can with a mix you like, then hit it with a gentle touch of a hard limiter at the very end.


I find that the loudest shortest problem things need to be fixed first, before any mix can be made. Once the sources are ironed out, and you have a mix, process in your normal fashion if all is regular.
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Offline checht

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Re: Order of Operations
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2019, 10:37:20 PM »
Just posted first show using RX-7 for audience noise reduction, and Audacity.

Ran into the issue I was concerned about: in an acoustic show, and some louder shows, the amplitude peak is likely to be a clap.
So if I normalize first, the clap limits the amplitude of the music.
Then I go through and de-click w RX, and peak amplitude ends up maybe -5.
If I normalize again, the claps are prominent again.
Thoughts?

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Offline yousef

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Re: Order of Operations
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2019, 06:46:43 AM »
I found my Reaper post.  It actually doesn't include my workflow, but I might post that soon. 

The second link in the post should be enough to convince you that Reaper is awesome for concert editing.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174517.msg2199750#msg2199750

Fully paid-up Reaper convert for many years here (for post-processing aud recordings, multitrack recording and mixing, everything) but the SWS extensions are news to me - look great... Looking forward to investigating what they can offer me. Many thanks for the pointer!
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Order of Operations
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2019, 07:26:30 AM »
Just posted first show using RX-7 for audience noise reduction, and Audacity.

Ran into the issue I was concerned about: in an acoustic show, and some louder shows, the amplitude peak is likely to be a clap.
So if I normalize first, the clap limits the amplitude of the music.
Then I go through and de-click w RX, and peak amplitude ends up maybe -5.
If I normalize again, the claps are prominent again.
Thoughts?

If that clapping is in a section of applause (not while music is playing), I would use the Limiter in Audacity on just those places (not the entire recording).  Use the Soft Limit preset under Type, and experiment with the threshold (LImit To) until you get the claps to be no louder than the loudest musical peak.

I would NOT do this in any places where there is clapping during the music, as that will be squashed along with the clapping.  Either be more aggressive with DeClick in those instances, or you could try Audacity's Limiter again, this time set to Soft Clip.
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Offline checht

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Re: Order of Operations
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2019, 11:10:36 AM »
If that clapping is in a section of applause (not while music is playing), I would use the Limiter in Audacity on just those places (not the entire recording).  Use the Soft Limit preset under Type, and experiment with the threshold (LImit To) until you get the claps to be no louder than the loudest musical peak.

I would NOT do this in any places where there is clapping during the music, as that will be squashed along with the clapping.  Either be more aggressive with DeClick in those instances, or you could try Audacity's Limiter again, this time set to Soft Clip.
I end up with both situations. Neil Young had lots of clapping during the music, as well as sreaming (spectral repair tool).
Bela Fleck I say next to a very proficient clapper, who shared 4 or 5 super loud claps after each song.

Thanks for the ideas, Audacity's limiter is one of the best effects in that toolkit.

So, thinking my workflow will be:
Audacity to soft limit/soft clip, drop labels, and normalize.
RX to de-click (vinyl preset)
Audacity to edit metadata and export tracks.

PS: Anyone ever normalize by song rather than whole show?
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Order of Operations
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2019, 02:50:44 PM »
PS: Anyone ever normalize by song rather than whole show?

I think that would be very jarring to listen to, unless you're just listening to one song.
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Offline morst

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Re: Order of Operations
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2019, 04:04:12 PM »
PS: Anyone ever normalize by song rather than whole show?

I think that would be very jarring to listen to, unless you're just listening to one song.
Volt is exactly correct on this. If you're only outputting a single song, by all means, do what you want to it without regard to its neighbors.
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