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Author Topic: Record First Row, mic under chair  (Read 2535 times)

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Offline thebeaker

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Record First Row, mic under chair
« on: June 08, 2019, 06:04:49 PM »
Hi all,

Tomorrow my favorite poprock Band will play the Last gig and retires.
I really want to enjoy the concert so i decided not to record. I want to enjoy it. But my heart will bleed not having the Last Show on tape - no Matter it is not first class quality as usual.. It is a seated gig and i will be in row number 1.
So i thought maybe to set my church audio omni ca 11 under the Seat and let it go.
I use a batterybox and a Sony pcma 10.

Do you think it might be hearable? Shall i use bass rolloff?
Any other suggestion to keep enjoying it and still record this as a memory?

Thanks in advice!

Offline perks

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2019, 11:36:32 PM »
I'd try to get the mics on your person and up much higher than the floor.

Under the seat you will likely get music but you will also get all the noises of the seats, people's feet, anything that hits the floor, etc.

If you are going to go thru all the trouble to make a recording why not make it the best recording possible?
Mics: Schoeps MK5, Schoeps MK41, AT853u (C,SC,H,O), DPA 4061
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Offline tim in jersey

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2019, 12:20:35 AM »
Up in the hat. Figure it out.

Offline thebeaker

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2019, 01:46:07 AM »
I want to sing and keep moving. Thats why i want to get rid of Equipment

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2019, 04:45:41 AM »
singing and recording are not compatible
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Offline thebeaker

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2019, 05:20:51 AM »
I have already one record of that Show. I just want to enjoy it for the Last time they perform, but still like to have a record of todays Last gig. Does not need to have highest quality, just to have it for emotional reasons :)

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2019, 06:03:03 AM »

Do whatever you want. If enjoying yourself is more important than getting the tape then make it easy on yourself.

I have put the recorder somewhere besides where I'm sitting ( a ledge, shelf, FOH mix position) when my seat was less than ideal but if this is a not really allowed job you may not have that option.
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Offline Sevoflurane

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2019, 07:55:25 AM »
I have put the recorder somewhere besides where I'm sitting ( a ledge, shelf, FOH mix position) when my seat was less than ideal but if this is a not really allowed job you may not have that option.

Yeah, I have done this as well. Mostly when I go see DJs play.
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2019, 12:36:43 PM »
Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Offline ilduclo

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2019, 12:49:48 PM »
Put the gear someplace else, on stage or on a wall using gaffer tape, then sign your friggin heart out, just not so loud it’ll get on the recording! :cheers:

Offline DATBRAD

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2019, 01:01:54 PM »
It sounds like the OP is saying they play the same setlist every show, which is why he's not worried about quality. But, since this is the subject band's last show, what if they break from their setlist and play some rarities or have something special up their sleeve. I say do it right, or leave the gear at home and just enjoy the show. The fence won't hold a taper, you have to pick a side, trust me......
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Offline tapeheadtoo

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2019, 09:32:12 PM »
Trust me.  I've done this before (put recorder on floor) and the results were not listenable.
Mics: Schoeps MK4, DPA 4061, AT953, Shure MV88
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Offline thebeaker

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2019, 12:29:50 AM »
So back at home and satisfied with the result. Had my Sony pcma10 lying on ground on a jacket. Locut on and rec Level 2 with internal mics. Music is not distorted although very loud with much bass.
In Front of us was the stage about 3m away in eyeheight with a stack pointed to us down  ;)

So maybe this helps other people in a similar situation. :)

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2019, 10:11:20 AM »
Post a sample so we can hear what you are satisfied with.

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2019, 12:14:16 PM »
Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Ditto. Gaff the churchies inside a baseball cap, run the wire down shirt, to preamp or battery box. You can dance all you want, I do. Go big or don’t bother. Under the seat is Furbie territory and complete 💩.
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Offline heathen

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2019, 12:27:37 PM »
Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031 | AT AE5100 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pre: CA9200 Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline love2tape

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2019, 03:49:29 PM »
singing and recording are not compatible

disagree.. I have a few tapes I love & others have enjoyed where I let loose a few times on 3-4 songs out of 20. make me cringe? yeah. better than not having a tape? absolutely.

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2019, 04:16:08 PM »
Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

Offline heathen

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2019, 04:35:36 PM »
Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

Even though I don't know you personally, I respect you as a taper.  It just irks me to see someone told "Either do it right or don't bother."  I don't know if OP is new at this or not, but nonetheless I'd hate to think that someone might be pushed away from the hobby because they don't think they are doing it "right" by someone else's standard (whether it's OP or someone else who reads this thread).  Everyone has different standards, and what is thoroughly enjoyable to one person might be unlistenable garbage to another.  And vice versa.  If someone wants to try recording with their recorder sitting on the floor, who is it hurting?  If it doesn't come out well then at least it's a learning experience.  Making suggestions about other methods they could try is one thing, but saying they shouldn't even bother recording is another thing.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031 | AT AE5100 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pre: CA9200 Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2019, 06:42:00 PM »
I have made decent recordings with mics on or at least near the floor. I wouldn't recommend it if there are better options, but sort of like "the best camera is the one you have with you," it can be significantly better than nothing.

Offline TheMetalist

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2019, 02:06:55 AM »
Tomorrow my favorite poprock Band will play the Last gig and retires.
I really want to enjoy the concert so i decided not to record. I want to enjoy it. But my heart will bleed not having the Last Show on tape - no Matter it is not first class quality as usual.. It is a seated gig and i will be in row number 1.
So i thought maybe to set my church audio omni ca 11 under the Seat and let it go.
I use a batterybox and a Sony pcma 10.

How was the show? How did the recording turn out? :)
It's not about fancy equipment. It's about the thrill, passion and hard work. Liberate the music!

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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2019, 03:55:46 AM »
i have no problem with people doing it 'the right way' or bust... on their own terms. Thats called internal quality control

when you try to tell someone else what the 'right way' is, its a slippery slope that often ends up with people waving their mics around like dicks

i dont bother to track out and officially release shows i bone... but i will throw it up on soundcloud for people to hear warts and all

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Offline edtyre

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2019, 09:33:37 AM »
Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

I’m with you bro, we didn’t get to be world class tapers
by taking short cuts or doing things that are easy, and we have
suffered great physical pain and stress to make a top notch recording.

music>mics>pre>recorder
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2019, 11:28:49 AM »
Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

Even though I don't know you personally, I respect you as a taper.  It just irks me to see someone told "Either do it right or don't bother."  I don't know if OP is new at this or not, but nonetheless I'd hate to think that someone might be pushed away from the hobby because they don't think they are doing it "right" by someone else's standard (whether it's OP or someone else who reads this thread).  Everyone has different standards, and what is thoroughly enjoyable to one person might be unlistenable garbage to another.  And vice versa.  If someone wants to try recording with their recorder sitting on the floor, who is it hurting?  If it doesn't come out well then at least it's a learning experience.  Making suggestions about other methods they could try is one thing, but saying they shouldn't even bother recording is another thing.

I hear you but in this case it is not a noob taper who was asking for advice on how to do it so he could get a tape without putting in the effort.  This is a have your cake and eat it too using the overused cliche.  If the recording is important enough to ask the question, then go all in.  If it is not then don't.  The only person it could hurt is the taper who will regret not going all in years from now if this was an epic final show.  My favorite band's final show would never be a learning experience.  It would be go big or go home.  He asked for opinions and advice.  That was mine.

Offline lsd2525

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2019, 11:31:58 AM »
Isn't under a front row seat with internal microphones Furbie's go-to recording technique?  ???
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2019, 05:49:31 PM »
Could actually make for good placement for a show in a small room with no stage and no PA reinforcement!

Otherwise, to quote the 8-ball- "Outlook not so good"
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2019, 07:11:35 PM »
Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

I’m with you bro, we didn’t get to be world class tapers
by taking short cuts or doing things that are easy, and we have
suffered great physical pain and stress to make a top notch recording.
.

First world pain and suffering.   :lol:
😈 Mk4v/41v>nbob actives>Baby nbox>Oade warm mod Marantz 620.

Open: 4v/41v>nbobs>Naiant PFA>Oade warm mod 661.

Home: the Stereo Hospital budget refurb rig: Lappie>DragonFly Red with Jitterbug>Nikko NR520 amp>B&W V202 speakers. Hi Fi Goodwill style.

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2019, 01:47:55 AM »
Either do it right or don't bother.  If it sounds like crap you will never listen to it and regret it.  If having fun is more important to you then you made your call.  IMHO putting gear on the floor is a waste off effort.

Isn't something better than nothing?

Also, whether a recording is done "right" is completely subjective.

For me, no.  If I f up a recording I rarely will listen again.  If I do a half assed job it pisses me off more knowing I made the decision myself.  By right, I mean do everything I can to make the best recording possible.  Maybe I hold myself to a higher standard but I would have traded back to a better spot too.  I think back to when I had a problem with my NBox.  I recorded a few songs with the internals and thought what the hell am I doing and shut it down.  I listened to about 10 seconds afterwards and just deleted the files.  Again, to each his or her own but for me there is a definite right way to do it.  If someone asks I will give them my answer.

I’m with you bro, we didn’t get to be world class tapers
by taking short cuts or doing things that are easy, and we have
suffered great physical pain and stress to make a top notch recording.
.

First world pain and suffering.   :lol:

risking our lives out there every night like John K.
in:
small: MK4/4V > CMR > V3 or J.Williams Mod MicMan Jr or no pre at all >AD2K/R07/PCM-A10/Oade Warm 661/DR100-MKIII

smaller: 4061/4099 CORE or 4011/4018V> d:vice MMA



out:
home:Benchmark DAC1 HGC > Dynaudio BM15A active monitors
shop: Musical Fidelity VLink 192 Asynchronyous> coax> DAC1 > Rokit RP8 active monitors

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2019, 09:30:02 AM »
Pain is relative, like time..  just image a never ending family reunion!

But yeah, we all have our own personal thresholds of acceptability.  I see it as a higher level taper skill to know oneself well enough to discern when to, and when not to make the effort, while being relatively assured of one's future satisfaction with the decision.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2019, 09:56:44 AM »
Looking back, a show last year comes to mind.  Big "non-open" arena show, taper friend and his wife in town for it and good floor seats, but not really something either of us want to "make a real taping effort at".. yet we're tapers and cannot avoid feeling the pull..  so we sat next to each other and had a good time with recorders in our front shirt pockets. 

We treated it as an informal "internal mic comp" between the M10 and DR2d.  It was fun to record without any self-pressure to "do it right", it was fun to just have a good time and not care, and it was fun to compare the recordings afterwards, then basically forget about them.  I even briefly considered starting a tongue-n-cheek comp thread here, including a matrix of the two sources.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2019, 11:31:19 AM »
I think it's  fine to use cheap gear, not everyone can swing great gear. I do hate lack of effort though. No reason a ca-14 taper can't be as ballsy as the taper with high quality gear, and location can go a long ways to make economy gear sound good. Not under the seat. Just no reason for that.
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2019, 11:49:49 AM »
singing and recording are not compatible

disagree.. I have a few tapes I love & others have enjoyed where I let loose a few times on 3-4 songs out of 20. make me cringe? yeah. better than not having a tape? absolutely.

I stealthed a show a few weeks ago that I sang along to pretty loudly the entire time. Can't hear it at all. I was actually pretty surprised at the result.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2019, 11:56:40 AM »
I think it's  fine to use cheap gear, not everyone can swing great gear. I do hate lack of effort though. No reason a ca-14 taper can't be as ballsy as the taper with high quality gear, and location can go a long ways to make economy gear sound good.

+T
Effort, determination, and technique are the most important assets in our pursuit of the heat.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2019, 12:06:54 PM »
I think it's  fine to use cheap gear, not everyone can swing great gear. I do hate lack of effort though. No reason a ca-14 taper can't be as ballsy as the taper with high quality gear, and location can go a long ways to make economy gear sound good.

+T
Effort, determination, and technique are the most important assets in our pursuit of the heat.

I agree with the general sentiment, BUT taping (at least for me) is a pursuit based almost entirely on personal enjoyment. I tape the shows I want to see, in the seats I want to be in. That just so happens to usually correspond with the best sounding seats in the house. I can totally identify with wanting to put the gear down (or at least physically separate it from yourself) so you can have a good time, and I've been in a situation where I wish I had done that instead of making the effort to make a better tape... At the end of the day, if you ruin your enjoyment of a show by forcing yourself to be a stoic mic stand, then what's the point?
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-05, Sony Hi-MD

Offline heathen

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2019, 02:54:19 PM »
At the end of the day, if you ruin your enjoyment of a show by forcing yourself to be a stoic mic stand, then what's the point?

I was thinking about this the other day and it occurred to me that the hassles of stealthing (or even open taping) could for some people, and in some circumstances, be a higher grade of fun like Steve Rinella describes it.  Basically, he says that something like a roller coaster is low grade fun because you enjoy it in the moment and then the feeling immediately disappears and you basically forget it.  Something that sucks in the moment, though, can be a higher grade of fun because you can look back on it for years and enjoy reflecting on how much it sucked.  If you were with friends enduring the suck it can be a moment you all talk about with fondness, in a way, later on.

Of course everyone has to make their own decision about what grade of fun they want, what sort of balances they want to strike, etc.  But that concept of high and low grade fun is something I think about in a variety of contexts, including this bizarre hobby.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2019, 04:08:04 PM »
+T & +T

Certainly a grain or more of truth in that.  My primary motivation is my own personal enjoyment and deeper, richer appreciation of the music.  It's also a fun challenge making the recording in the moment and everything that goes along with that, as is figuring out how best to go about doing it and revising the approach over time.  And although it is likely apparent given the nature of my participation in this forum, gaining a deeper understanding of acoustics and solving the engineering challenges of creating the recordings we make in challenging situations is an undeniably attractive aspect.

For many the primary satisfaction is sharing the music with fellow music fans. Although I rarely post my recordings, sharing personal insights into the pursuit of this art with other tapers is a big motivation as well.

We sure ain't doing this for the money, as that all flows the opposite direction. Make great tapes folks, whatever the motivation!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline bonghitwillie

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2019, 03:32:38 PM »
I have done this before. I was in the 2nd row center. The seat in front of me (front row) had a horizontal bar and and lots of open space under the cushion. The band was 10 feet in front of the front row and on the ground, no elevated stage. It was a stealth job. I brought two rigs. One rig had mics clipped to shirt the other one was under the seat. I used gaff tape to hold the mics in place and nobody knew what I did. Not sure if one recording is better than the other. but they both sound good.

Offline sdc

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Re: Record First Row, mic under chair
« Reply #37 on: Yesterday at 11:56:39 PM »
In fairness to the OP, this does sound like it was a particularly special show, hence the dilemma.  Generally, I'm fine being stoic. But, that said, there was one show, a year or two ago, where I decided that no one would be better or worse off if I didn't make a recording, and around the third song I put down the recorder and just danced for the rest the show instead of recording it.  People captured other sets on the tour, and I selfishly chose my own pleasure over posterity. 

 

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