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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3  (Read 13647 times)

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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #150 on: February 25, 2020, 08:22:17 AM »

Here’s what I’m currently thinking: I’d like to try wide-spaced subcardioids (using the full width of the bar, 2 feet) with a hyper in the center.

I did this fairly often in the past with Peluso subcard mics as a split pair or in a NOS type arrangement (usually a little wider and not angled as much as 90 degrees much as Gutbucket suggests) with a single hyper mic in the center pointed straight down the middle. Only when I was pretty close to the source less than 50 feet.

It helped give some clarity to recordings made in a specific room that suffered from the line arrays being hung in such a way that in order to cover the very wide room it created a lot of early reflections and made the sound from the audience a little muddy.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #151 on: February 25, 2020, 12:08:53 PM »
Over in the Izotope RX thread I posted a bit of speculation about the potential of using "de-bleed" type DSP processing on multichannel array sources as a way of manipulating the directivity of channels in the array:

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=186865.msg2323770#msg2323770
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline prepschoolalumniblues

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #152 on: February 26, 2020, 06:28:46 AM »
Everything you described is pretty much my exact scenario, so I’m glad to hear that you’ve had some success with it. Thanks for sharing and I’m excited to try it out.


Here’s what I’m currently thinking: I’d like to try wide-spaced subcardioids (using the full width of the bar, 2 feet) with a hyper in the center.

I did this fairly often in the past with Peluso subcard mics as a split pair or in a NOS type arrangement (usually a little wider and not angled as much as 90 degrees much as Gutbucket suggests) with a single hyper mic in the center pointed straight down the middle. Only when I was pretty close to the source less than 50 feet.

It helped give some clarity to recordings made in a specific room that suffered from the line arrays being hung in such a way that in order to cover the very wide room it created a lot of early reflections and made the sound from the audience a little muddy.
Mics: Line Audio CM4 (sc); Line Audio OM1 (o); Audio-Technica AT853Rx (c, sc, o); Audio-Technica ATU853 (c, o); Oktava MK-012 (hc, c, o)

Decks: Sound Devices MixPre-3, Marantz PMD661 (Oade warm mod), Marantz PMD620MKII, Marantz PMD-706 (Oade warm and concert mods)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #153 on: March 09, 2020, 06:27:05 PM »
Continuing with the OMT8 re-rigging:
Ran the new CDint microdot cable through the snake to the center DPA4098 (M/S Mid) which allowed moving it's XLR adapter from up top down to the recorder.
Covered the raw aluminum center mic-pair adapter with black heat-shrink.
Made small pass-thru for cable snake from main compartment of bag to front pocket, where F8 and Tallentcell battery are housed.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 06:53:05 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #154 on: March 09, 2020, 06:37:30 PM »
Cleaned up the center-hub arm supports by removing the ratty gaff tape from the stiff "mustache" wires which support the telescopic antennas, replacing it with heat shrink.  Much cleaner and somewhat better cushioning/abrasion-protection for the telescopic arms and wiring.  Because the stiff support wires were already bent to shape it was difficult threading the heat-shrink around the bends, so I covered each with two sections.  Would be much easier to heat-shrink the straight wire prior to bending, which is how I originally applied the gaff tape.  I've used the original support wire for the past 10 years or so, which was formed from a stainless steel welding rod.  The smaller 'V' shaped one supports the rear-facing pair and is fashioned from plain-steel coat-hanger wire.  Those arms are much more lightly loaded, yet can still droop if the hinge screw becomes loose.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 06:58:55 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #155 on: March 09, 2020, 06:50:48 PM »
Getting there..
I next intend to use sections of heat-shrink in place of the remaining gaff tape, most of which secures the wiring and mics to the antenna arms, some of which is used to make the shiny stainless-steel hardware bits matte-black.  That will look much cleaner and more professional up close, will be friendlier to the wire jackets, and eliminate the nasty adhesive goo when re-working things.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #156 on: March 09, 2020, 07:22:00 PM »
Man, I love seeing this rig.
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline b9audio

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #157 on: March 10, 2020, 02:43:38 AM »
This is really a good job. Wonder how it sound?

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #158 on: March 10, 2020, 08:28:06 AM »
It is beautiful! Thank you Gutbucket for the photos.

I have one question. I am using very similar telescopic antennas. I have them attached to the main stand using U-profile with rubber. So the antennas are not conductively connected to the stand. Last time I had some problem with wifi or phone interference. I wondered if I did not make it worse by not having antennas conductively connected to the stand. I know nothing about these problems. I see from the photos that you are using heat shrink on some individual parts. Did you have any problems with RFI?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 08:56:56 AM by kuba e »

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #159 on: March 10, 2020, 09:43:32 AM »
Wow, post up that Marco show bro! :P   Thanks for the pictures! Looking great.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #160 on: March 10, 2020, 12:20:33 PM »
EmmR- Thanks!  It is most certainly oddball. I've very much enjoyed working through its evolution over the years and documenting that here.  Not quite of the same complexity as some of your impressive contrivances though!


b9audio- This array was developed first and foremost for multichannel (7-9 ch) surround playback, yet I've found that most of the fundamental array design choices are directly applicable to producing quality 2-channel stereo output with an especially useful degree of flexibility given the odd constraints under which most members of this forum are recording (non-professional live-performance audience perspective recording).  For years I've been intending to make various samples and full recordings available here.. the absence of which is admittedly appalling. As tapers we are something of an odd bunch, and I suppose this is my particular peculiarity. Along with the high degree of flexibility these arrays provide comes a necessity for proper mixing, and I feel a strong responsibility for doing that properly to really do the recordings justice.  I hope to move forward and get back to proper mixing again, yet life pulls in multiple directions and I don't currently have my editing system or monitoring setup operable. I really need to work toward getting that in place again and am currently listening through headphones to the 2-ch monitor mix direct out of the recorder(s).  I've much respect for other tapers who do get their recordings out!

The primary aspect of this array specific to 2-ch stereo was the addition of the coincident figure-8 to the single center microphone position to form a Mid/Side pair.  This mostly addresses differences in imaging between 2-ch (L/R) and 3-ch (L/C/R) front playback arrangements.  With 3-channel playback the near-spaced L/C/R supercards are routed directly to the three front speakers and the figure-8 goes unused (at this point).  That I introduce an additional (8th) channel for 2-ch stereo only is ironic, but the M/S center pair provides a very useful degree of central image manipulation and helps convey a sense of 3-dimensionality otherwise lost when reducing everything from 7 playback channels distributed all the way around a listener down to 2-channels.  I've stated before that in some ways making a really good stereo recording is more challenging than making a good surround recording since it represents a further abstraction from reality, requiring additional care in crafting the illusion, whereas with the additional playback channels those aspects naturally become less-masked.  Likewise, although making an excellent mono recording requires less gear and setup complications, it represents an even greater challenge in crafting a really good sounding, convincing illusion.


kuba e-  I'm no RFI expert by any means, but I don't think electrically interconnecting the antennas and stand will make an impact on radio interference.  Some unbalanced microphones and cables are more susceptible to RFI than others.  Long ago I had some SoundPro's omnis that were extremely RFI sensitive in comparison to the miniature AT's and DPA I was also using. I'm not actually sure if there is good electrical connection between my antennas and stand or not.  There is no direct electrical connection between the signal chain and the bits of supporting kit.  Best for RFI rejection would be a balanced signal run from the microphones to recorder, but as you can see the only balanced run I currently have is for the figure-8.  I just eliminated the other by moving the XLR adapter for the center directional mic from the microphone down to the recorder itself.  I did so to streamline things aloft, recognizing that I would be increasing susceptibility to RFI somewhat by doing so. But I've not had RFI problems with the other channels, making it an acceptable trade.  There is no way I could arrange to have all seven XLR adapters up at the microphones so as to provide balanced runs up the stand without things becoming too heavy and bulky aloft.   

Certain unbalanced extension cables and connectors will be more susceptible to interference so you might try changing those out and keeping them as short as possible.  EFI rejection in unbalanced runs represents a particular flavor of sorcery, wish I could be of more help on this.


rocksuitcase- you are a big inspiration for me to work toward getting these recordings out!  Marco Benevento last Saturday was a great show.  Super windy out there that night though, and because of that this recording needs even more work than most.  The wind protection provided by the BAS windscreens was simply insufficient.  I was listening last night using headphones directly out of the recorder, going back and forth muting the figure-8 and various combinations of the supercards as required.  As expected, the fig-8 was most affected, but I also noted more wind noise in the in the center and rear facing supercards than the L/R supercards, presumably from wind leaking in through small gaps in the rear-cuff of those due to my mounting arrangements for those channels. Will consider ways to improve that. As expected, the sphere-mounted omnis with the thinner foam screens fared far better, with wind rumble only apparent in a few spots. 

Spyder 9 (Dan) also recorded using Nak1000 cardioids, but I've not checked with him since to see how much the wind affected his recording. I started with my array up quite high, which works best there when wind is not an issue.  I kept lowering the stand partly due to potential blow-over theat and partly in a futile search for less intense blowing down low, ending up at around about 7', same as Dan's rig.

Keep your ears open for the opening act, a local Miami instrumental band named Electric Kif, one of my favorite regional acts for several years that is astoundingly good and is starting to gather wider acclaim.  I think you'd really dig 'em.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #161 on: March 11, 2020, 10:17:29 AM »
Thank you Gutbucket for writing about your experience with RFI. Probably the place, where I was recording, had very strong wifi signal. I taped with chopped Nak300 in xy and spaced Dpa4061 on the antennas. The reason why I asked about antennas was that Nak300 had no interference. So my first suspicion was the antennas. Yes, all signals were unbalanced (Nak300->ca9200->dr2d + Dpa4061->second ca9200->dr2d). And I also soldered all connectors by me at home, maybe I didn't properly connect the cable shielding. I should check all my gear.

I understand you about releasing recordings. And I also respect people here that are releasing their recordings. I am taping very little and mostly only my friends. They are happy to listen to the recordings but it takes me too long to finish it. Even then I am not satisfied with my mix. Unfortunately, I don't have the discipline to return to the recording after some time. I'm sure OMT provides a lot of options. Because playing with OMT I am more aware now of some aspects of recording - center and sides of stereo image, direct/reverb ratio and specially the third dimension or some kind of fullness. I love when some recordings have the third dimension. Some audience or matrix recordings sounds great on stereo playback. When audience recording has this magic I am able to overhear even some major troubles.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 03:07:38 PM by kuba e »

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #162 on: March 13, 2020, 04:45:22 PM »
I'm sending a few photos of how I connected the antennas to the microphone bar. It's from the remnants I found in the workshop. I have the antenna wrapped in rubber and push it into the U profile. It holds tight. Assembly and disassembly goes fast.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #163 on: March 13, 2020, 05:03:25 PM »
Slick!  Digging the press-in friction mounting of the antennas via deformation of the rubber "bushings".  It's innovative, simple, low-profile, and appears to be quick to setup and break down. Nice work!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #164 on: March 13, 2020, 06:50:08 PM »
dig it
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

 

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