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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3  (Read 4344 times)

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Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2019, 08:39:10 PM »
I picked up a used Pearl MSH-10.  I have not used it in a concert setting yet but am going to try it next month for grins with a primary pair of 41s.  New venue for me (Sherman Th., Stroudsburg, PA).  I’ll post a clip after.

oh cool! 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2019, 05:41:00 PM »
^ Congrats. That Pearl looks to be a sweet microphone.  Should be interesting.

Kuba, Following up on your previous post..  There is no reason you must use all of the channels you've recorded in your mix. It's fun to discuss the technical possibilities and options, but if it sounds best with just the omni pair, no problem to just let it be. 
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2019, 12:25:18 PM »
Following up on this post ( a few back):
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191953.msg2314309#msg2314309

I had a thunderstorm roll through the other night and put out a Blumlein pair with a 30" AB omni pair.  In post I tried a 6dB/oct crossover between the pairs at 1200Hz, and it sure seems to do the right things to clear up the differences between the two pickups.  Listening to the two pairs separately, it's wild how totally different they are.  Without the crossover, the combined pairs seem cloudier and thicker, with obviously competing information. 

« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 03:05:24 PM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2019, 05:20:54 PM »
Cool.  Did you determine the crossover frequency beforehand or decide upon it by shifting it up/down and listening for best effect?  If determined by listening, how broad was the region in which there was little significant difference?

There are a few things in play here.  On the listening side- the Duplex theory of localization, on the recording side the AB omni spacing and its relation with wavelength, stereo recording angle, and the frequency above which pickup of diffuse sound becomes decorrelated.

Would be interesting to compare this to the same setup with a 2-3 times wider AB spacing if you get the chance.  The "texbook" Stereo Recording Angle of significantly wider AB omni spacings would no longer be as close to that of the Blumlein pair as they are in this case (where both are within 10° as indicated by the sengpielaudio visualizer; 90° Blumlein ~= 75° SRA; 30" AB omni ~= 85° SRA) but the SRA of omnis is pretty loose to begin with, especially at wide angles, and would only become more so only across a partial frequency range, presumably.

Increased AB spacing will lower the diffuse pickup decorrelation frequency between the two omnis, but also between the Blumlein pair and each omni (half the distance - twice the frequency) which reduces the phase interaction between pairs that is likely to be a leading contributor to a "cloudier & thicker" sound. 

I suspect this kind of carefully tuned crossover technique may be most advantageous for blending pairs that have similar SRAs and are less widely separated from each other.  It represents sort of a "dual-element main pair incorporating a careful hand-off that avoids conflict", rather than a mix of two pairs with different strengths that accentuate each other with somewhat less inherent conflict.

I tried and dismissed the "similar SRA's" approach in building up OMT arrays, but never got around to implementing a crossover to manage the hand-off, and that is what I suspect is required for such an approach to work correctly.  Thanks for posting about it here.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2019, 05:58:15 PM »
Did you determine the crossover frequency beforehand or decide upon it by shifting it up/down and listening for best effect?

Very basic experiment; picked 1200Hz at 6dB/oct as a test and went with it.  Haven't done anything else besides listening to individual pairs and all 4 blended with no crossover - had about 20 spare minutes to run post on it the other day, no chance so far to revisit. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
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Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #65 on: November 09, 2019, 10:33:58 AM »
Went back and checked it again, tried lower and higher crossover points.  Can hear a subtle difference.  The experiment seems to corroborate the 'science' of the zone between 800 and 1600. 

I don't find any way to sweep and listen, given that it's separate HPF and LPF EQ's set to the same frequency on different sources, and mixed.  An assembled crossover for mixing, rather than splitting. 

I will try closer and wider AB spacing, my gut reaction listening to the two types separately is that wider spacing will begin to create too much shift between types in this particular approach. 

Concert taping would seem to throw most of these 'rules' out the window anyway. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2019, 12:35:56 PM »
All makes sense to my way of thinking.

I've posted previously about how I wish mix/editing software packages would provide an easy way to setup this kind of complementary/inverse filtering to allow simultaneous adjustment of both filters with a single control.  Would make homing in on sweet points while mixing much easier.  This is yet another good application for such a feature.

This kind of crossover filtering between multiple mics in an array has been done by others but is not that well explored or documented around TS and I've not really had the chance to play with it as much as I'd like.  Thanks for posting your observations.

Similar but not exactly the same- a long ago I imagined applied a frequency-specific microphone-crossover technique to a bunch of omnis arranged in a line.  Imagine 6 or 8 omnis in a line with progressively increased spacing between pairs- a near-spaced HF pair in the middle, a mid-spaced midrange pair flanking that, a wide-spaced LF pair outside of that.. and crossover frequencies determined by the spacining relationships.  Such a setup really would make a simplified "phased array", linking wavelength and cross-over frequency and producing a similar SRA for each frequency range.

Next thought experiment added a baffle between the center pair.. And then a shift to use of increasingly directional microphones at the narrower spacings.  Imagining a high-passed 90° X/Y supercard pair + a high-mid band-passed near-spaced 90° cardioid pair + a low-mid band-passed mid-spaced 90° sub-cardioid pair + a wide-spaced low-passed omni pair.

Oddball for sure!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2019, 02:02:51 PM »
Similar but not exactly the same- a long ago I imagined applied a frequency-specific microphone-crossover technique to a bunch of omnis arranged in a line.  Imagine 6 or 8 omnis in a line with progressively increased spacing between pairs- a near-spaced HF pair in the middle, a mid-spaced midrange pair flanking that, a wide-spaced LF pair outside of that.. and crossover frequencies determined by the spacining relationships.  Such a setup really would make a simplified "phased array", linking wavelength and cross-over frequency and producing a similar SRA for each frequency range.

Next thought experiment added a baffle between the center pair.. And then a shift to use of increasingly directional microphones at the narrower spacings.  Imagining a high-passed 90° X/Y supercard pair + a high-mid band-passed near-spaced 90° cardioid pair + a low-mid band-passed mid-spaced 90° sub-cardioid pair + a wide-spaced low-passed omni pair.

Oddball for sure!

You're gonna have to try that!
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2019, 03:48:16 PM »
Just intended as something interesting to think about, exploring the idea.. not really meaning to suggest you actually do it!

I would still like to give it a go out of curiosity, but doubt I ever will.  If I ever do it would probably be at the amphitheater where I've run all my other crazy test setups over the years.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Moke

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2019, 04:51:41 PM »
This one worked really well.
Both a 4.mic coincidental (dr70d arry) and 6mic (binaural tracks added) renderings.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 05:32:29 PM by Moke »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2019, 05:47:26 PM »
^ Truly oddball! er, oddbox!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2019, 10:40:40 PM »
I wanted to try to get in close to the seated mid-section.  So I used the rearwardly baffled PZM-BLE pair as the forward pair there.  I used the CM3 as the rearward facing pair to pick up the rest of the ensemble, out to the outer points.
I cannot express enough what a mind screw it was to try to remember to keep the rearward pair in proper relation to the forward pair. Everything in my being had me trying to cross-connect them in hook up.
I've been liking the coincidental aspect in mixing.  It seems to me that it reduces a lot of the timing offest error that you get with NC patterns, in mixing. Its a lot cleaner insertion. With the omnis being this close, they might as well be thought of as coincidnetally timed. The baffling does the rest there. And with the directionality of the CM3's, it left that area well enough attenuated that it wasn't being redundant, and cancelling.
I liked it, quite a lot. I'm not sure when I could use it again, but I will, for sure.
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Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2019, 09:55:14 AM »
Dig it.  Whatever works!
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2019, 11:54:10 AM »
I wanted to try to get in close to the seated mid-section.  So I used the rearwardly baffled PZM-BLE pair as the forward pair there.  I used the CM3 as the rearward facing pair to pick up the rest of the ensemble, out to the outer points.
I cannot express enough what a mind screw it was to try to remember to keep the rearward pair in proper relation to the forward pair. Everything in my being had me trying to cross-connect them in hook up.
I've been liking the coincidental aspect in mixing.  It seems to me that it reduces a lot of the timing offest error that you get with NC patterns, in mixing. Its a lot cleaner insertion. With the omnis being this close, they might as well be thought of as coincidnetally timed. The baffling does the rest there. And with the directionality of the CM3's, it left that area well enough attenuated that it wasn't being redundant, and cancelling.
I liked it, quite a lot. I'm not sure when I could use it again, but I will, for sure.

Have you ever tried omnis on all four sides of that box?
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
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Offline Moke

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2019, 12:43:20 PM »
No. But I like your thinking.
This is the second time I've used the box as a PZM-BLE array.  The first time was with this same ensemble, and, was in combination with a 0º / 180º cm3 array over the top of it. That time I also had Güde Head mounted on top of the box, instead of the XY/CM3 array. The box is his road/storage box, and, chest/torso box.
Your question did just cause me to break out the MKE2002 mics, and see how they would fit. They wold work well, but would need some other form of attachment, and, they'd never be able to mount as tightly as the MKE2 pair.
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