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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3  (Read 13532 times)

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Offline prepschoolalumniblues

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #105 on: December 18, 2019, 12:01:08 PM »
I was reading an old thread on spaced omnis with center card (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=163840.0) and was curious if anybody has been trying this three-mic configuration out lately. I'm thinking about trying this out with a pair of Line Audio OM1s (omnis) and a single center CM4 (somewhere between a subcardioid and cardioid) into the three-channel MixPre-3.
Mics: Line Audio CM4 (sc); Line Audio OM1 (o); Audio-Technica AT853Rx (c, sc, o); Audio-Technica ATU853 (c, o); Oktava MK-012 (hc, c, o)

Decks: Sound Devices MixPre-3, Marantz PMD661 (Oade warm mod), Marantz PMD620MKII, Marantz PMD-706 (Oade warm and concert mods)

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #106 on: December 18, 2019, 12:30:29 PM »
I was reading an old thread on spaced omnis with center card (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=163840.0) and was curious if anybody has been trying this three-mic configuration out lately. I'm thinking about trying this out with a pair of Line Audio OM1s (omnis) and a single center CM4 (somewhere between a subcardioid and cardioid) into the three-channel MixPre-3.

Definitely try it!

Edit: You might also want to check out this thread http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=182566.0 and this one http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=182579.0
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 12:36:00 PM by heathen »
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline prepschoolalumniblues

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #107 on: December 18, 2019, 12:50:51 PM »
Thanks! I’ll add that the reason I’m thinking about this is because the CM4 doesn’t have quite as much bass as I’d like (especially from far away) so bass extension would be one of the main goals here (as opposed to running just a pair of CM4s).
Mics: Line Audio CM4 (sc); Line Audio OM1 (o); Audio-Technica AT853Rx (c, sc, o); Audio-Technica ATU853 (c, o); Oktava MK-012 (hc, c, o)

Decks: Sound Devices MixPre-3, Marantz PMD661 (Oade warm mod), Marantz PMD620MKII, Marantz PMD-706 (Oade warm and concert mods)

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #108 on: December 18, 2019, 01:19:55 PM »
Thanks! I’ll add that the reason I’m thinking about this is because the CM4 doesn’t have quite as much bass as I’d like (especially from far away) so bass extension would be one of the main goals here (as opposed to running just a pair of CM4s).

Interesting.  I never found the bass lacking in my CM3s, but it would make sense that the CM4s have less bass because they're closer to a normal cardioid pattern.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #109 on: December 18, 2019, 02:05:02 PM »
I was reading an old thread on spaced omnis with center card (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=163840.0) and was curious if anybody has been trying this three-mic configuration out lately. I'm thinking about trying this out with a pair of Line Audio OM1s (omnis) and a single center CM4 (somewhere between a subcardioid and cardioid) into the three-channel MixPre-3.

Yes try it!  Really not terribly different in purpose than my complex rig.  Think of all my crap in the middle as one sound source, just built out from mono with options.  No reason not to stick up cm4 middle pair with cm3 flankers either if you have the record channels. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #110 on: December 18, 2019, 02:47:51 PM »
I was reading an old thread on spaced omnis with center card (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=163840.0) and was curious if anybody has been trying this three-mic configuration out lately. I'm thinking about trying this out with a pair of Line Audio OM1s (omnis) and a single center CM4 (somewhere between a subcardioid and cardioid) into the three-channel MixPre-3.

Yes.  It may help to conceptually think of this as spaced omnis +.   In other words, mostly spaced AB omnis plus additional help from the mic in the center. 

The thread heathen linked above is a good read on that, being more concise than these OMT threads which also cover it.  I just added a comment and edited my previous last post there.


Things to keep in mind:
The most appropriate choice of center pattern in such a 3-microphone setup boils down to the question: In what ways should center microphone pickup differ from AB pickup? ..which relates to at least two different, sometimes contradictory aspects.  The center microphone mostly contributes forward presence and direct focus, yet needs to do that in such a way that it blends in seamlessly.

If you can't space the omnis much, a more directional center microphone can help to avoid problematic interaction between the omnis and center (there is no available spatial hole to fill). In this case the center microphone is primarily providing increased direct-sound pickup and clarity which gets overlaid on the already seamless spatial stereo "bed" provided by the omnis.

As AB-omni spacing is increased it can help to shift to a wider pickup pattern for a single center mic.  That helps blend the center channel contribution seamlessly into the stereo mix so that when brought up to a desirable level it is not perceived as being separate from what the omnis are providing  - separate both in terms of Left/Center/Right energy-balance (hole-in-the-middleness) and in terms of timbre.  You don't want the contribution from the center mic to be perceived as a sort of separate narrow pool of sound tightly centered the middle of the playback image (more likely when the timbre in that channel differs greatly from that of the omnis) because if that happens you can't raise the level of the center channel enough in the mix to make a useful contribution without calling too much attention to it.  In that case we need more overlap / interaction between the center and AB omnis rather than less.

Yet at the same time, use of a more directional center microphone is desirable to achieve enhanced clarity and presence of the direct-sound pickup.  This is why going to a coincident stereo pair in the center works so well.  We can get both that clarity as well as a bit of increased spatial width in the center which helps it blends in with the omnis.  Plus we get the ability to adjust that center width in the mix.  A single center mic works too, you just need to home in on the optimal pattern/spacing arrangement with a bit less flexibility afterwards in the mixing stage.

To really get a good handle on what's going on, try it both ways- A pair of spaced OM1s with a single center OM4, versus a pair of OM4s with a center OM1.  Without any EQ filtering applied there will be limits to how narrow and how wide the pair should be spaced for all three to work best in combination, but either way should have the pair spaced somewhat wider than if that pair was in use alone without the center microphone channel.

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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #111 on: December 18, 2019, 02:52:24 PM »
Thanks!   I gotta try wider omni soon.  In this particular room AB60-70ish mixes well with the coincident set, maybe because it’s a shallow space.  I can see wider being definitely cool with greater distance.  Need to try it in this room for comparison. 

I tried applying the crossover theory I mentioned earlier, then modified it.  I didn’t really like tossing the treble from the AB set, and [snip]...
Maybe laying out thought process on this will help someone else. Anyway, digging the experiments.

EmRR, thanks for relating what you are doing in mixing with regards to crossovers, levels & EQs.

I also like the high-frequency contribution from the AB omnis and find it works nicely in a 2ch mix as long as there is sufficient AB width.  It provides attractive "air".  I speculate that a LPF on the AB pair (possibly as the lower half of a crossover arrangement with the center MS pair) may be most useful where one cannot achieve sufficient AB spacing - avoiding less desirable comb filtering interactions arising from a relative near-spacing.  Further increased AB width makes this HF aspect work even better in addition to making the LF aspects work better.. presumably for similar reasons, although in the longer-wavelength LF range that will be in the mode of phase interaction, while in the HF range the interaction will be in the time-of-arrival mode (since the same spacing represents multiple-wavelengths in that higher frequency range).

I might have additional comments on what you've posted about this and will go back to it when I have a chance.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2019, 11:39:48 PM »
[snip]
The AB is currently -12 relative to the MS.  Adds a bass width that matched the treble info in the coincident set.

The shotguns are EQ’d with a low shelf cut to focus upper mid intelligibility and set -9. [snip]

The shotguns are seductively dangerous.  In the end I took them down to -12 relative to the main M of the MS.  I decided they were adding too much of an odd 'in yer face-ness' at some frequencies that would really pop out on certain voices and horns, not on other things at all.  Slighty lower seems to give a more desirable amount of that without distorting the overall perspective. 

Also decided I had the AB contribution sounding wider than the treble info in the MS, which doesn't add any useful info in this room, just more side wall bounce and audience noise. Seductively dangerous again, exciting at first but didn't wear well with repeated listenings.   Took it down to -18, definitely still there (surprising), nice filling out of the bottom without being bloated or artificially wide.   Big resonant room bloat around 200Hz too, even mixed that low I took a little of that range down to clean up some mud. 

Some of this one is a battle with an OK but not great PA mix, large band with horns and multiple singers, varying mic techniques and horn volume, acoustic bass notes with strong resonances, etc.  A lot of the voices had too much proximity effect so were bass heavy with not articulation, but a couple singers stayed of the mic and sang with a lot of volume, so they sound thin in comparison.  A couple of horns were so loud they were hardly in the mix, others were louder than voices in the PA. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #113 on: December 27, 2019, 02:50:00 PM »
Trying a horizontal only native B format surround array in the middle of spaced omnis with Emma Gibbs Band at Ramkat tomorrow.  Had to cut down the Shapeways mount to get spacing for the omni mic.

Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #114 on: December 27, 2019, 05:50:27 PM »
Hmm, because some of the flat portion of the mount needed to be removed to fit over the cylindrical portion of the mic body close to the capsule end?  I couldn't figure out why from the photo above until I went back and looked at the shot you posted of same mount without the omni here- https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191953.msg2315073#msg2315073
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #115 on: December 27, 2019, 05:53:58 PM »
Yeah, not much space available between the mics. 

Recorded a rehearsal with this setup in a small space today, checking out the new RODE Soundfield processing plug, more flexibility than the older Soundfield plugin.  Adds a shotgun mode.

Also:   that swing arm mount with the clamp I used for the PAS shotgun wroks great here for the omni, it's clamped to the mic stand. 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 06:08:41 PM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #116 on: December 27, 2019, 07:27:36 PM »
checking out the new RODE Soundfield processing plug, more flexibility than the older Soundfield plugin.  Adds a shotgun mode.

I wonder if that is based on the 1st order ambisonic "focus" variable which essentially modifies the omni W component to increase bias in a certain direction (something like that, not sure about the technical aspects) or some other signal manipulation.  The implementation of "focus" in VVMic is seductive with my TetraMic recordings in providing increased direct clarity, yet is easy to heavy-hand.  Just a touch seemed to work best without affecting other aspects negatively.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #117 on: December 27, 2019, 11:28:26 PM »
checking out the new RODE Soundfield processing plug  Adds a shotgun mode.

I wonder if that is based on the 1st order ambisonic "focus" variable which essentially modifies the omni W component to increase bias in a certain direction (something like that, not sure about the technical aspects) or some other signal manipulation

Not sure, I haven't spotted info beyond the website.   The pattern control has two settings, one runs omni to figure 8, the other runs cardioid to what looks like a second order oblong shape with no rear pickup. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #118 on: December 29, 2019, 04:31:09 PM »
Was hoping to use an extension bar to get the AB wider, but discovered I'd have no place to clamp the B format omni.  Probably could have figured it out, but had no time to think about it. 

Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2019, 08:38:51 AM »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

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