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Offline Limit35

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Backwards DIN
« on: December 06, 2019, 03:00:41 AM »

I really didn't know what to put in the subject header to accurately describe this phenomenon I have seen. I have noticed this setup every once and awhile, uncommonly at shows I have gone to over the years, different folks, running their mics like a separated X/Y or a backwards DIN kind of setup. I really want to ask them why they are choosing that setup but don't want to bother, more often then not they seem to have a decent rig. I have never heard one of these recordings from the shows I was at and I think for good reason I imagine. I was wondering if there is some historical/hysterical reason for this offset X/Y, backwards DIN setup.

Maybe I should explain it better. It looks an attempt at X/Y with mics on the same vertical plane and the capsules are spaced about two inches apart. Now that I am looking my hands trying to figure it out, it is probably a backward NOS. Because the XLR ends are usually pretty far apart. I just assume there has to be a "back in the day" story and these guys are not budging from that setup. I have seen this setup in old Dead taper section photos and I am pretty sure I have never heard those recordings either because I can't imagine it sounds good.


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2019, 09:04:20 AM »
I suspect what you are describing are Schoeps vertical-address capsules (mk4V or mk41V) mounted on a bar originally intended for the standard end-address version of those mics.  It is, or at least was a somewhat common setup for those vertical address microphones.  Using the end-address version of the microphones the setup would "look normal" with the mic housings angled forward toward the stage.  Innovative tapers learned that the vertical address versions could use the same bar, yet since their diaphragms face perpendicular to the housing, flipping the bar backwards ends up pointing them toward the stage with the same angle and almost (if not exactly) the same spacing.  As long as its a 90 degree angle bar (DIN/NOS), the angle between capsules ends up the same with the bar flipped.  Flipping an ORTF bar (110 degrees) produces a 70 degree mic angle which can be useful for getting the capsules closer to on-axis with the stacks, but a 70 degree angle between mics would ideally use increased spacing between them to keep the image width from collapsing.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 09:20:43 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2019, 09:17:18 AM »
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2019, 09:25:11 AM »
backwards on an ORTF bar is an old favorite for the V capsules, it directs them at 70 degrees
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Offline Walstib62

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2019, 10:53:55 AM »
Yes it is side address vs. end address

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2019, 01:04:47 PM »
FWIW, it's highly unlikely but possible that at least one of the instances you've seen actually was standard end-address capsules facing away from the stage (yet did not represent a taper f*&%-up!)  ;).  I currently run a similar configuration in a multi-microphone array for ambient room and audience sound pickup, albeit using different microphones.  Those channels are either routed to surround speakers or blended into a 2ch stereo mix at lower levels.  Some DMB tapers did some stuff like this in the 2000's, producing quadraphonic recordings encoded to DTS, although most of those that I'm aware of used different methods.
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Offline Limit35

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2019, 02:34:28 PM »
Thanks for the enlightening Schoeps info but these are end address microphones, not in an array either. I asked about it twice without being rude about it and all I got from the guys was their rig info, AKGs in both cases oddly. I have seen it maybe 4 times live, just recently hence the post, and in older photographs. I guess it is just misinformed X/Y I suppose or maybe if one didn't have a riser and couldn't vertically align the capsules? But then just flip it around and do a near-coincident recording, I don't know. I will just have to ask the "WTF, is that?" question whenever I see it again.

Offline perks

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2019, 03:16:54 PM »
I'm confused - the taper is running SDC capsules directly attached to the mic bodies and they have these mics in what kind of a mount? When you initially said running DIN backwards I immediately thought they must be using a real Schoeps bar or one of the many HQ copies like the ones available from Kwon, NOLA, or It Goes To Eleven. But those bars are designed work with the use of active cable rig.

Are you saying the taper is using a t-bar with clips that appears spaced roughly the dimensions of DIN?
Mics: Schoeps MK5, Schoeps MK41, AT853u (C,SC,H,O), DPA 4061
Preamps/converters: Schoeps VMS52UB (x2), Nbox (x2), E.A.A. PSP-2 (x2) Grace Lunatec V2 (for sale), Sound Devices MP-2 (for sale), DPA MMA6000, Naiant Tinybox v1.5, Naiant PiPsqueak, Church Ugly, Apogee Mini-Me, Benchmark AD2k+
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Offline Limit35

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2019, 05:28:44 PM »
Are you saying the taper is using a t-bar with clips that appears spaced roughly the dimensions of DIN?

Yep, but backwards...
                                             [stage]
 
                                                /  \
                                              /      \

Here are some photos old photos I found from a quick look online.
Rear rig, right side...https://www.davidmeermanscott.com/hs-fs/hubfs/GD_tapers.jpg?width=343&name=GD_tapers.jpg
Guns, center right, 1:00 of the sign or PZM mics...https://jranderson.photoshelter.com/image/I00008S4oliarlKc

Offline heathen

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2019, 08:14:59 PM »
Are you saying the taper is using a t-bar with clips that appears spaced roughly the dimensions of DIN?

Yep, but backwards...
                                             [stage]
 
                                                /  \
                                              /      \

Here are some photos old photos I found from a quick look online.
Rear rig, right side...https://www.davidmeermanscott.com/hs-fs/hubfs/GD_tapers.jpg?width=343&name=GD_tapers.jpg
Guns, center right, 1:00 of the sign or PZM mics...https://jranderson.photoshelter.com/image/I00008S4oliarlKc

Looks like an attempt at XY without the capsules being aligned vertically.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
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Offline Limit35

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2019, 01:28:15 AM »
Exactly, I was just wondering if there was some taper folklore about this setup. It seems in this day and age there is no reason to setup that way. One can hear examples from many sources and one has plenty of information on what is a typical setup is to figure things out. I admit I will bend the rules within certain situations but this one I cannot figure out.

Offline Walstib62

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2019, 08:24:42 AM »
Exactly, I was just wondering if there was some taper folklore about this setup. It seems in this day and age there is no reason to setup that way. One can hear examples from many sources and one has plenty of information on what is a typical setup is to figure things out. I admit I will bend the rules within certain situations but this one I cannot figure out.


When you said "backwards" I thought you meant that the mic capsules were facing away from the sound source. In the pictures, it looks like the capsules are facing the sound source.

Offline heathen

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2019, 10:00:59 AM »
Exactly, I was just wondering if there was some taper folklore about this setup. It seems in this day and age there is no reason to setup that way. One can hear examples from many sources and one has plenty of information on what is a typical setup is to figure things out. I admit I will bend the rules within certain situations but this one I cannot figure out.

Don't worry for a second about "bending the rules."  There are no rules...just do what sounds good to you and feel free to experiment (unless of course you're recording a band on a professional level, in which case there are some expectations).  You can do the same setups other tapers are running, or you can try something different...it's all up to you.  But don't fret for a second about any "rules" or how your rig will look to someone else.  We need more variety and experimentation, IMO.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2019, 10:10:48 AM »
Exactly, I was just wondering if there was some taper folklore about this setup. It seems in this day and age there is no reason to setup that way. One can hear examples from many sources and one has plenty of information on what is a typical setup is to figure things out. I admit I will bend the rules within certain situations but this one I cannot figure out.

I ran into a couple of newbies in the past that seemed to want to run their mics that way for some weird reason. I remember one dude at a Built to Spill show and he was running his mics "toed in" so that the right mic was pointed roughly at the left side of the stage and the left mic was roughly pointed at the right side but with a good six inches of space between the capsules. He couldn't wrap his head around the idea that he needed to plug his cables in reversed from the way he had them and I'm guessing his tape was not very good.

I tried some wonky stuff early on just to see what would happen and other tapers would give me shit about it but since there were other tapers it didn't really matter if my experiments didn't work out.

I tend to stick to things that I know will give me the result I'm looking for based on previous experience but I definitely do not stick to the conventional wisdom all the time.
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2019, 10:59:07 AM »
I’ve seen people run that way before. I don’t understand it, but, to be fair, I’ve never listened to such a tape.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2019, 11:19:31 AM »
It looks like they wanted to run xy, but they have no spacer to elevate one mic. The microphones block each other high frequencies coming from the sides. Maybe there are some unwanted reflections too. But I don't think it sounds very different from the correct xy.

Offline Limit35

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2019, 12:49:06 AM »
I tend to stick to things that I know will give me the result I'm looking for based on previous experience but I definitely do not stick to the conventional wisdom all the time.

Yes, I totally agree with this. Some rooms desire strange solutions I have found.

It looks like they wanted to run xy, but they have no spacer to elevate one mic. The microphones block each other high frequencies coming from the sides. Maybe there are some unwanted reflections too. But I don't think it sounds very different from the correct xy.

I am thinking along the same lines about "wanting" to run X/Y. I am not sure how many high freqs are getting blocked though, SDCs are fairly small sound walls.

Thanks for the input everyone, I would like more. My historian/anthropological brain got the best of me recently and I figured there has to be some illogical or experiential reason folks are setting up this way. By folks, I say that in uncommon observation. The fact I have never heard a recording from this setup from shows I have been to is saying something, I would like to. If they sound good, great! I am just amazed that someone can spend so much money on gear and can't buy a riser. We are a weird bunch, hobbyist, and that brings out personal idiosyncrasies amateur hobbyist persuasions do. I guess I need to run two rigs and figure this one out.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2019, 08:52:48 AM »
As long as the capsule diaphragms are kept relatively tight together it probably won't matter too much for X/Y.  Note that the X/Y arrangement of internal mics on handheld recorders is frequently setup that way because its easier to fit the microphones next to each other rather than one atop the other in that small format.  Essentially, issues of practical setup dominate over the minor influences in sound pickup.

However, in a near spaced setup such an arrangement will cause the level-difference between channels to contradict with the time-of-arrival difference between channels rather than accentuating each other in the way near-spaced configurations are intended to work.   Same if using shotgun mics that way since the diaphragm is located at back of the interference tube and if arranged such that the front ends of the tubes are coincident, the back ends of the tubes where the diaphragms are located will be spaced apart to the opposite side in relation to the level difference imparted by the pickup pattern directionality.

What will be the influence on the sound?  Tonally, such an arrangement should not have much if any affect in comparison to the same spacing between capsules with the mics angled the other way.  It is imaging aspects where one would expect to hear a difference.
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2019, 09:19:53 AM »
This thread would be more useful with audio.....
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline kuba e

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2019, 06:18:29 AM »
Thanks for input Gutbucket and for pointing to the problem with near spaced setup. It never occurred to me that there is a hidden problem. When I forget the raiser, I know what to watch out for.

Limit35, I remember Gutbucket answered this in the past. An object that has a dimension of 1/4 wavelength of sound is already starting affects that sound. For example: The mic's diameter is 0.8''. Then sound of frequency 4200Hz and higher (wavelength 3.2'' and lower) is starting to be affected by the mic's body. In our particular case, this is a trifle because the paired mic only influence the side sound. Direct sound is not affected.
http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm
Just teoretically, this is the reason why omni patterns are directional at high frequencies.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 08:02:08 AM by kuba e »

Offline mjwin

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2019, 01:08:43 PM »
At a local classical music festival a few years ago, just out of curiosity I was peering at the mics flown above the stage. They appeared to be AKG C414s, but were arranged in a strange config.  Spacing was approximately ORTF (around 20cm), but each mic was pointing inwards, so that their axes crossed in just the manner described above.  I studied the arrangement for quite a while before starting to feel quite embarrassed on behalf of the recordist!  I can't help wondering how it actually sounded, but probably no one ever noticed: these recordings are for archival purposes only, with the mics set up & remaining in the same configuration for the whole of the week long festival...   

This thread would be more useful with audio.....
Yeah, it would be interesting to try sometime: use a second pair of mics & deliberately get it wrong!

For a lot of recordings the imaging  isn't that important.  But I'm curious to know whether it would manifest itself as "so-so imaging", or "something bad is happening here".

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2019, 03:58:10 PM »
At a local classical music festival a few years ago, just out of curiosity I was peering at the mics flown above the stage. They appeared to be AKG C414s, but were arranged in a strange config.  Spacing was approximately ORTF (around 20cm), but each mic was pointing inwards, so that their axes crossed in just the manner described above.  I studied the arrangement for quite a while before starting to feel quite embarrassed on behalf of the recordist!
What would make that sound bad? Shadowing? You'd have a hole in the middle if you didn't cross them!? #OrtfHole
hey now!

Offline mjwin

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2019, 05:13:27 PM »
At a local classical music festival a few years ago, just out of curiosity I was peering at the mics flown above the stage. They appeared to be AKG C414s, but were arranged in a strange config.  Spacing was approximately ORTF (around 20cm), but each mic was pointing inwards, so that their axes crossed in just the manner described above.  I studied the arrangement for quite a while before starting to feel quite embarrassed on behalf of the recordist!
What would make that sound bad? Shadowing? You'd have a hole in the middle if you didn't cross them!? #OrtfHole

Sorry if i didn't make myself clear. What I should have said was that, in my example,  the right-hand mic was pointing left, and the left-hand mic pointing right. 

Because the mics were spaced at around 20cm, although sounds coming from the right would reach the right-hand mic first, they would actually be louder in the left-hand mic since it was pointing that way (and vice-versa). So the level difference and arrival time difference would  give  opposite directional information, and so potentially lead to poor, or weird sounding(?) spatialization. As I said, I don't know how bad it would sound in practice, even if the problem would be audible when listening casually.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 05:16:43 PM by mjwin »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2019, 05:55:12 PM »
At a local classical music festival a few years ago, just out of curiosity I was peering at the mics flown above the stage. They appeared to be AKG C414s, but were arranged in a strange config.  Spacing was approximately ORTF (around 20cm), but each mic was pointing inwards, so that their axes crossed in just the manner described above.  I studied the arrangement for quite a while before starting to feel quite embarrassed on behalf of the recordist!
What would make that sound bad? Shadowing? You'd have a hole in the middle if you didn't cross them!? #OrtfHole

Shadowing effect is one concern, conflicting imaging cues is another, different concern.

Not sure what you mean by the part in bold, which is not the case.
If it is ORTF teh microphones are presumably angled (crossed?) with an angle of 110° between them.
If they aren't angled apart at all, it's a narrow A-B setup.
 
The problem is crossing them such that the level cues tend pull the left side sources to the left on playback, while the timing cues pull the same sounds to the right on playback.  If they aren't crossed but angled outwards, the level cues and timing cues both work together to pull a left located source to the left side on playback without conflicting each other.  Hole in the middle isn't really an ORTF thing when done properly, although the center can have less definition and clarity in situations where ORTF isn't the best choice.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 06:48:12 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2019, 06:45:33 PM »
In thinking about all this, it occurs to me that imaging conflicts between stereo pair spacing (time cues) and angling (level cues) will be most significant with regards to near-spaced microphone configurations, and won't negatively affect coincident nor wide-spaced AB configuration imaging to the same degree.

With respect to coincident arrangements, even though one should strive for the maximum practical coincidence and preferably err toward mics pointing away from each other rather than across each other when not vertically arranged (one placed directly above the other), lack of perfect coincidence is more likely to affect things tonally (via combing determined by the non-coincident distance between microphones) and in a general sense of producing less sharp imaging rather than causing an outright conflict between perceptual imaging cues.  Maximum time of arrival difference between channels of a close but not perfectly coincident arrangement can be significant enough to produce combing at higher frequencies, while not being large enough to produce a significant perceptual image shift.

It also won't matter much for very (overly?) widely spaced arrangements, where angling the microphones inwards can actually help unify central pickup and solidify the middle by placing center sources more on-axis with both microphones and by reducing the level difference between channels for off-center sources to some degree.

For the most part, in both the coincident and wide-spaced cases perceptual imaging is dominated by one imaging cue over the other.

Its near-spaced configurations where two relevant aspects come into play:
1) Near spaced configs are intended to achieve a certain degree of balance between timing cues and level cues- both are intended to work together.  This makes direct conflict between the two types of cues are problematic, at least with regard to imaging.
2) And now I can't remember the other one.. uh, time to go eat.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline kuba e

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2019, 01:03:09 PM »
Unfortunately I have no idea what should be the second aspect for near-spaced configuration.  But I would like to ask about the combing.

Maximum time of arrival difference between channels of a close but not perfectly coincident arrangement can be significant enough to produce combing at higher frequencies, while not being large enough to produce a significant perceptual image shift.

Do you mean to produce the combing because summing stereo to mono? Or is it combing because some unwanted reflection?

It also won't matter much for very (overly?) widely spaced arrangements, where angling the microphones inwards can actually help unify central pickup and solidify the middle by placing center sources more on-axis with both microphones and by reducing the level difference between channels for off-center sources to some degree.

This thread remind me one of my older recording. I know that tapers don't use cardiods in AB configuration. I tried it only one time. It was for PA music in small club. I pointed the mics at the stack, almost parallel. Spacing was near, about 12'.  The recording was not good, the stereo image had solid center but no sides. I rescued it by changing Mid/Sid ratio in DAW.
But maybe wide AB cardiods should do better results. Sometimes I am using wide AB omnis with one cardiod mic or two coincident in the center. When the acoustic in the club is bad or I am not in a good location, I can mix only very little of omni pair in the final track.  I wanted to try a wide AB cardiods. Wondering if they would behave better in a room with poor acoustics and let me to mix wide spaced pair more in the final track.

Offline EmRR

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2019, 01:32:06 PM »
Reminds me of my one experiment with PAS near coincident shotguns in a medium sized room.  Strange imaging.  Yeah, that’s a bit apples to oranges. 
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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2019, 01:39:36 PM »
Do you mean to produce the combing because summing stereo to mono? Or is it combing because some unwanted reflection?

Yes the two channels summing together, yet not electrical summing (mixing) which is the more straightforward case and how it is normally thought about, but rather at the ears when listening over speakers.  Likely to be perceived as some high-frequency cancellation or fuzzier high frequency imaging of center content.. if it is audible.

Quote
This thread remind me one of my older recording. I know that tapers don't use cardiods in AB configuration. I tried it only one time. It was for PA music in small club. I pointed the mics at the stack, almost parallel. Spacing was near, about 12'.  The recording was not good, the stereo image had solid center but no sides. I rescued it by changing Mid/Sid ratio in DAW.
Makes sense that 12 inch parallel spacing would not produce much stereo width when recording from a distance, and that increasing M/S Side ratio could help that.
 
Quote
But maybe wide AB cardiods should do better results. Sometimes I am using wide AB omnis with one cardiod mic or two coincident in the center. When the acoustic in the club is bad or I am not in a good location, I can mix only very little of omni pair in the final track.  I wanted to try a wide AB cardiods. Wondering if they would behave better in a room with poor acoustics and let me to mix wide spaced pair more in the final track.
Sounds like a good plan. Give that a try sometime.
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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2019, 01:58:08 PM »
Reminds me of my one experiment with PAS near coincident shotguns in a medium sized room.  Strange imaging.  Yeah, that’s a bit apples to oranges.

I can see that. I have not tried but have suggested PAS coincident shotguns as a way of maximizing direct-sound pickup from a stereo PA while minimizing the phase-interaction-weirdness of a stereo pair of shotguns, ideally combined with a less directional wide pair contributing good decorrelated indirect / ambient / room / audience sound that would also help bury the off-axis misbehaviors of the shotguns.  I suspect that might respond well to a re-adjustment of stereo-width of the coincident PAS shotgun pair in the mix in a way similar to how kuba e corrected his near-spaced parallel cardioid pair.
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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2019, 02:03:25 PM »
^ Really just a special case of a wide-spaced omni pair + X/Y PAS center pair.  Even if the wide-pair aren't actually omnis.
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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2019, 11:08:00 PM »
It also won't matter much for very (overly?) widely spaced arrangements, where angling the microphones inwards can actually help unify central pickup and solidify the middle by placing center sources more on-axis with both microphones and by reducing the level difference between channels for off-center sources to some degree.
this is the solution to what I was referring to as the hole in the middle
hey now!

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2019, 05:00:58 AM »
Its near-spaced configurations where two relevant aspects come into play...
2) And now I can't remember the other one.. uh, time to go eat.

I am sorry, I forgot. Enjoy your meal!

Reminds me of my one experiment with PAS near coincident shotguns in a medium sized room.  Strange imaging.  Yeah, that’s a bit apples to oranges. 

I have old shotguns too. I should try to use it. I will not disturb this posts, I will ask in OMT.

It also won't matter much for very (overly?) widely spaced arrangements, where angling the microphones inwards can actually help unify central pickup and solidify the middle by placing center sources more on-axis with both microphones and by reducing the level difference between channels for off-center sources to some degree.
this is the solution to what I was referring to as the hole in the middle

I'd love to try it. I hope I will have the opportunity someday.

 

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