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Author Topic: Split cardioid's?  (Read 5748 times)

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Offline rumbleseat

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2020, 11:20:42 AM »
Hi!
Thought I'd tack on to this thread since it has the most appropriate title...

I'm going to try an indoor recording at a club tonight with an XY center and a split pair of "somethings".  I've got Chris Church's CA-11 cardioids and can use them as-is for one option.  My bar is adjustable (rabbit ear antennae...) from 2' to about 4'.
Question - If I go with split cardioids, where best to point them, and how far to split?  I'll be at the soundboard and the PA stack angle will be about 50-60 degrees as a guess.

I was also pondering taking the cardioids and wrapping the back vents with gaff tape to give them more omni character.  The vents won't be totally inactive since gaff tape will have some frequency-dependent bleed, and even if the vents were perfectly sealed acoustically-wise, the frequency response of the mics might be messed up (fix it in post!).
If this mod seems workable and I go this route, where should they be pointed and how far to split??

This is not a trick question - I'll accept any and all answers!
Thanks!

AKG C480B CK61 cards or AKG C568EB or Church CA-11 cards >  Canare L-4E6S with Neutrik EMC > Tascam DR-680 MKII or DR-44WL > memories

Offline heathen

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2020, 12:34:01 PM »
Question - If I go with split cardioids, where best to point them, and how far to split?  I'll be at the soundboard and the PA stack angle will be about 50-60 degrees as a guess.

Check out Gutbucket's PAS table.  That should get you dialed in nicely.  I believe it's linked in the signature line of his posts.
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Offline rumbleseat

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2020, 12:56:52 PM »
Thanks heathen!
I hadn't thought about using that table.  I was thinking that the split cards would be a secondary source for "ambience" or "width" or whatever we're calling it, but setting them up according to the table should give give something listenable.  Heck, its possible that they might sound better than the XY in the center!
AKG C480B CK61 cards or AKG C568EB or Church CA-11 cards >  Canare L-4E6S with Neutrik EMC > Tascam DR-680 MKII or DR-44WL > memories

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2020, 08:54:16 PM »
Wide split cardioids + X/Y cardioids in the center.. hmmm.   One thing I'd suggest say is not to block the vents as that's unlikely to work out well (but try it anyway for something you don't care about and report back!)

If inside your best bet will probably be to either:
1) run the wide-spaced cards PAS, and the X/Y pair angled +/- 45 degrees (90 degrees total).
      -or sort of the inverse of that-
2) run the X/Y pair PAS, and the wide-spaced cards angled +/- 45 degrees or more.

^
The second is actually somewhat similar to the front-directional-core of my OMT rig which uses a M/S pair in the center between +/-45 degree angled supercardioids spaced about 2' apart (~1' to either side of the center M/S pair).  It also includes wide-spaced omnis and a pair of rear-facing mics, but I typically listen to various combinations of the mics to asses what is working well and it usually sounds very good with just the center coincident pair and the +/- 45 degree angled near-spaced pair on their own.

If outside in the sweet spot I'd probably go more radical and run the X/Y pair PAS and the wide-spaced cards angled +/- 90 degrees (pointing directly to either side)

Check out Gutbucket's PAS table.  That should get you dialed in nicely.  I believe it's linked in the signature line of his posts.

That's primarily intended for optimally angling/spacing a single pair of PAS mics.  When using a combination of a spaced pair plus a single center mic or coincident center pair, you should push wider with the spaced pair (spaced, angled or both) than the PAS table suggests.  Twice as much is not out of line and should work well.  Otherwise you can get to much conflicting in the middle.  Go wider to leave room for the coincident pair to do its thing.
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Offline rumbleseat

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2020, 05:17:59 PM »
Thanks to everyone for their advice!

The show I recorded was Railroad Earth at the Lincoln Theatre in Raleigh, NC on Feb 21, 2020.  Three other tapers captured the show, making for some interesting sonic comparisons.  My mics were at about 8’, while the others were about 8.5’ to 9’.  The stands were on a riser about 3’ off the main floor.

I ended up using a 42” split for the CA-11 cards with a roughly 90 degree angle.  The PA stacks were at about 40 degrees, so the cards were aimed well outside the stacks. 

The four recordings are linked below – queued to the song “Monkey”.  The first three don’t list any processing, so they may be raw recordings.  My final recording, however has lots of EQ and a bit of compression.  The volumes of these selections are undoubtedly different, so try to ignore the “louder sounds better” instinct.  I’ve also provided links to my two raw recordings if you’re interested in giving them a listen.

This was my first time out with the DR-44WL.  It behaved nicely, even though it dropped the WiFi connection with my phone about half way through the show.  No matter, it kept recording anyway and politely split the file when it reached the 2GB limit.

1) Schoeps MK4/CMC6 > Sound Devices 744T by Robbie Dunn
https://archive.org/details/rre2020-02-21.MK4.FLAC24-48/RRE+2020-02-21+s1t09.flac

2) sE Electronics sE8 > Tascam DR-100 mkIII by Fletcher Robinson
https://archive.org/details/rre2020-02-21.rre/09-+Monkey.wav

3) Rode NT4 > Roland R-07 by Terry Killebrew
https://archive.org/details/rre2020-02-21.WinterTour/09.Monkey.flac

4) Split CA11 cards with Naiant PFAs plus Tascam DR-44WL internals > DR-44WL by Randy Hoke
https://archive.org/details/rre2020-02-21.dr44wl.flac24/rre2020-02-21t09.flac

    4a) Raw DR-44WL internal mics (FLAC 24/48)
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GP_NzI2sQPRatzK2raQXvdrE0vbQVyY1

    4b) Raw CA11 mics (FLAC 24/48)
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HUJkLzfhVv4uz-KJQDIMSabEJnBzWZC1
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 05:21:59 PM by rumbleseat »
AKG C480B CK61 cards or AKG C568EB or Church CA-11 cards >  Canare L-4E6S with Neutrik EMC > Tascam DR-680 MKII or DR-44WL > memories

 

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