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Author Topic: On stage recording?  (Read 5554 times)

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Offline mterry

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On stage recording?
« on: April 07, 2003, 12:11:35 PM »
I'm going to try it out at a upcoming show. Currious about what height to run the mics at, and also what setup to use........xy, ortf, din......

480/ck61 > usbpre >......

Never done an onstage, so any help is appreciated
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Offline creekfreak

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2003, 12:37:04 PM »
yea, good questions, I also would like to try this but have no idea where to start. When you are on stage what exactly are you picking up? The monitors, raw music?
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Offline hippies

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2003, 01:48:27 PM »
yes, the Amps and Monitors.  

try to think of the Amps/ Monitors array as a mini PA and set your stuff up accordingly.  usually dfc/ 2' high or so would be a good generalization/ starting point.

in some situations, you may want to consider how the musicians and their Amps/ Monitors are arranged onstage and adjust your position/ pattern depending.  Drums can tend to drown out other instruments at times.  

i prefer ORTF onstage, but others have differing opinions, including X/Y, etc..  Omnis or M/S would also be cool if you have that capability.

hope this helps.

~S  
« Last Edit: April 07, 2003, 01:55:00 PM by hippies »

DaryanLenz

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2003, 01:55:25 PM »
I have run on-stage several times, DFC about 3 ft high.  I have run exclusively xy, as I think the added seperation of ortf etc was not necessary.  Try it out, see what you like!  I would say, that stage recordings make taping very satisying for that particular day.  It is failry hard to screw up on-stage ;)

Daryan

Offline creekfreak

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2003, 01:56:35 PM »
cool, good info, now what do you use to run your mics 2; to 3' feet high, stand is not going to work.
It is company policy never to imply ownership in the event of a dildo - We have to use the indefinite article; "A" dildo, never: "YOUR" dildo.
In Tyler we Trust

And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, ooh ooh ooh, the sky is the limit!

My Current Rig:2004 Subaru WRX STI, Stage 3, 360hp, 380lb-ft

Tim

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2003, 01:59:52 PM »
pickup a small stand from guitar center etc. or if you know the house engineer really well you might be able to borrow one. sometimes you may even be able to clamp onto a stand already on stage for a vocal mic etc.

Offline hippies

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2003, 02:02:49 PM »
well you need a new stand for stage taping, bro!  Guitar Centers have some for micing drums/ bass/ sitting musicians, etc.  i can give some examples/ links if you like.  smaller the better, generally.  i also have one i could loan out if someone needs it.

peace

~S

DaryanLenz

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2003, 02:08:23 PM »
I don't have one, but one that I have seen that works really well is a kick drum stand with a heavy duty base.  Gives some added stability.  Then, I usually clamp onto that as to extend the mics a little further without the base being quite as close.  Ebay has a crap ton of them, and they generally are really cheap.

Daryan

Offline creekfreak

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2003, 02:11:59 PM »
just what I need, another stand ;D, will have to look into that
It is company policy never to imply ownership in the event of a dildo - We have to use the indefinite article; "A" dildo, never: "YOUR" dildo.
In Tyler we Trust

And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, ooh ooh ooh, the sky is the limit!

My Current Rig:2004 Subaru WRX STI, Stage 3, 360hp, 380lb-ft

Offline ducati

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2003, 07:19:25 PM »
I just taped from the front lip of a stage last night, my first experience of the sort.  I used my regular 'ol manfrotto stand, although a small drum stand would have been perfect.  I'll have to look into grabbing a cheap one.  I ran about 2' high.  I would have run a bit higher, but I didn't want to stick out like a sore thumb, as my manfrotto/shure/at shockmount contraption was fairly beastly  ;)  I think 2-3' is a good compromise that shouldn't get you into trouble.

I ran DIN, I'm very pleased with the results...  I would probably have chosen ORTF if the stage was wider than the 4 musicians I was trying to accomplish.  As it was, my DIN basically pointed each mic at the outside musician's cabinets.  Seemed like a good choice.

Level adjustment was more difficult to get right..  The bass and guitar cabs really have a much larger dynamic range when you're that close.  Best watch carefully until you get the feel of it :)  I ended up running a bit more conservative than I usually do, as I was playing with 24 bits and didn't feel the need to run so hot.  That being said, it was lucky I did: max level was 0db for the left channel and -.7db for the right!

Offline mterry

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2003, 07:36:12 PM »
yeah, pretty hot levels!

So, if we are talking a 20ft long stange, would you point your mics at 3/4's of each end of the stage? (not sure if that made sense)

I'll probably just go out there and wing it, and hope for the best!
"That's deplorable, unfathomable, improbable!"

"Then we played Davidson, and they wore us out. Davidson controlled us - other than Kentucky - as well as any team all year long"

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Offline hippies

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2003, 09:53:23 PM »
try to remember that when recording with a set of mics in stereo config:

it's not always what's directly in front of you, or what you're 'pointing at'  that is the most important.  the info that the mics are 'picking up', is majorly affected by what is rejected by pickup pattern/ config.  

this is why we call this an 'ambient' stereo recording.  ;)

onstage makes no difference.  same rules apply.  

like i mentioned earlier. picture the stage as a mini PA array.  this should help you decide how to run.  

hope this helps.

~S

 

Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2003, 12:13:27 AM »
HI All,

I was thinking about stage taping a bit this morning and while I like the results of some of the recordings I have heard, something struck me.

Perhaps, I'm a bit slow, but the only comments I've generally heard are that it is tough to do with bands that have vocals. However, the other noteworthy deficiency is the lack of any effects that are applied by the FOH engineer (ie. reverb, delay, etc...).

Not a stab on stage taping, just a random thought.

Is anyone doing any post-production to master these and add a bit more of the feel we would have heard in the room.  I'd love to hear some stories.

Happy Recording Everybody.

Marc

Tim

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2003, 12:58:46 AM »
However, the other noteworthy deficiency is the lack of any effects that are applied by the FOH engineer (ie. reverb, delay, etc...).

Unless the drummer is playing a well-tuned Noble&Cooley kit I'd rather hear the drums coming through the PA  :)

Stage tapes do sound wonderful but I definitely miss having a nice tight and fat kick drum with some nice verb on the snare and toms. A few gates and compressors do some drums wonders..

I really like on stage tapes but the lack of foh processing is noticeable...
« Last Edit: April 08, 2003, 01:34:31 AM by Tim »

Offline mterry

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2003, 01:16:51 AM »
The only reason I want to do a onstage is because the venue has HORRIBLE sound, I mean, just dirty. So, onstage can only improve it
"That's deplorable, unfathomable, improbable!"

"Then we played Davidson, and they wore us out. Davidson controlled us - other than Kentucky - as well as any team all year long"

 - Bill Self on PTI (2/28/11)

Tim

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2003, 01:35:55 AM »
However, the other noteworthy deficiency is the lack of any effects that are applied by the FOH engineer (ie. reverb, delay, etc...).

Unless the drummer is playing a well-tuned Noble&Cooley kit I'd rather hear the drums coming through the PA  :)

Stage tapes do sound wonderful but I definitely miss having a nice tight and fat kick drum with some nice verb on the snare and toms. A few gates and compressors do some drums wonders..

I really like on stage tapes but the lack of foh processing is noticeable...

Of course you can forget I said any of that if it is some straight swinging jazz... then totally acoustic drums sound fantastic.

Offline carlbeck

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2003, 05:26:24 AM »
  I kind of prefer stage taping in some of the venues around town. The tapes have a sureal form of intimacy, on playback it can sound as if your sitting on the stage between the musicians. Maybe it's also b/c it's like sleeping with a stranger, you don't get to do it all the time but when you do it sure is alot of fun ;D
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Offline ducati

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2003, 09:44:24 AM »
I think stage taping works really well with bands without vocals...  Anything Jazz or jazz-derived seems like a perfect target for it.  I don't think some jam bands would come out really great for stage taping, I do think they need the FOH processing to get their "sound."  And music without the vocals in a band like, say, Guster, wouldn't sound very good (although I'd love to capture those congas acoustic).

But for someone like Scofield, it's heaven, pure heaven.

Maybe it's years of being an audiophile that have done it to me, but I expect to be front and center with the musicians almost life-size.  I don't like the "i'm way off in the taper section feel."  Stage taping comes closest to what I expect from an well-recorded album.

Unless the band is all amplified, I don't think you need to add any effects for depth.  Drum kits come out beautifully 3-d, as well as acoustic guitar, trumpet (any horn really), not sure about strings.  Amplified electric still retains it's sense of space in the recording, too; I ran DIN (ORTF might also be a good choice) to add a little time-delay into the recording, as I surmise this gives the amplified instruments more depth.

Dunno, it's all new to me...  but i think it's definitely the way to go with jazzy acts if they allow it.

Speaking of which, does MMW?  Vida Blue?  JMP?  Does anyone know of a list of bands that allow stage taping?  The only way I found out for the last show is a fellow taper clued me in ;)

Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2003, 11:44:51 AM »
carlbeck wrote:
>Maybe it's also b/c it's like sleeping with a stranger, you don't get to do it all the time but >when you do it sure is alot of fun

Hi Carl (and All),

That could well be the funniest analogy I have ever heard. : )

Hmmh, let me think, stage tape, another woman, stage tape, another woman.  I'm married.  Better go for the tape.

Have Fun,

Marc

Offline hippies

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2003, 12:10:41 PM »
Vida Blue allows Stage Taping?  hadn't heard that.  seeing them tomorrow night in Chicago.   ::)

Offline ducati

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2003, 12:18:15 PM »
I asked *if* they allow it, not saying they do!  ;)

Offline hippies

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2003, 02:28:41 PM »
pretty sure they don't.  thought you might be on to something there though.  ;)

Offline schoeps t00bes

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Re:On stage recording?
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2003, 02:44:05 PM »
nope....all the side projects have the same audio recording policy as phish.  :\'(
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