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Author Topic: Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S  (Read 6068 times)

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Offline RIPJJG

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Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« on: May 04, 2003, 11:58:39 PM »
I'll be taking my new rig to the Dead, and would love some input from the fine folks in this group, regarding mic pattern, placement, ect..ect. I'll be using a shure vertical bar and, I'll be running ADK A-51 TL's > UA5 p-mod> Sony PCM-M1

Thanks!

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2003, 01:04:16 AM »
omni or cards for sure...you might wanna split the mics a little more than usual....a LOT of phase shifting goin on...you really just gotta find the sweet spot there.....wherever that may be.... ;)

bean
Recording Rigs:
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Offline schoeps t00bes

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2003, 04:39:52 AM »
i would run the cards NOS!!!!!!!   ;)
the section is very close and directly behind the mix position....i think there are only like 5 rows in front of the mix postion too....which makes FOB a little difficult.  anyway, the section at red rocks sounds great!!  you will be happy with the results.

have fun,
dave
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Offline greenone

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2003, 08:22:48 AM »
Lots of phase shifting, definitely...and WIND. Make sure you use your heaviest wind screens or it'll sound like ass. A buddy of mine was taping and working there during HORDE '93 and he remembers an entire cymbal stand catching the wind just right and being blown across stage. Fortunately, he was plugged into the SBD...I can only imagine what the AUDs must sound like. ;)

Definitely one of the best-located taper's sections, though...there's a concrete slab right above the tunnel leading up to the mix position that's typically roped off; that's a great spot to set up because nobody stumbles through during the show...

--Dave
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Offline creekfreak

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2003, 10:46:26 AM »
For sure, have fun at Red Rocks, one of the best places to see a show period....haven't been there since 96 myself, have fun!!!
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Offline RIPJJG

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2003, 10:19:01 PM »
Thanks folks. It will be my first time at RR. I can't wait.

Offline John R

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2003, 01:01:37 AM »
red rocks, definately magic.  lived in colo for 12 yrs and only got there once :-[  saw phil and les.  there was an electrical storm happening to the east past denver, awsome show,  take your camera.

jr
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2003, 01:23:00 AM »
definitely magical... ;)

bean

p.s.- if ya havent been there, GO THERE!!!!!!!
Recording Rigs:
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SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 2x 64gb Ultra Plus

Portable Playback Rigs:
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Offline BobbyHurley

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2003, 10:56:21 AM »
Check the RIG PICTURES section and see the recent post entitled "Random Pics" - the middle shot is from the TS at Red Rocks last summer.
AKG C 480 B (CK61 and CK63) > Oade m248 > GAK cable > Sony M-10

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2003, 03:17:31 PM »
bob,
  +T for the pics...who are those cats... ???

bean
Recording Rigs:
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/0 KCY's ->
Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3 ->
SanDisk 128gb Extreme Pro & 2x 64gb Ultra Plus

Portable Playback Rigs:
Campfire Audio Andromeda & Dorado | Westone (2nd Generation) UM Pro 30 IEM's ->
Linum G2 SuperBax & Bax |  2x CA/ALO SPC Litz | Sony MUC-M2BT1 LDAC MMCX Cables ->
Shanling M5s & M0 | Sony NW-A35 DAP's

DAW:
Dell Inspiron 5570-5521 SLV Laptop
(Pentium i5 Processor/8gb RAM/256gb SSD)

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline quantegy

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2003, 10:38:08 AM »
Magical is really the only word for it. I live in denver and summertime at Red Rocks...well, it just doesn't get any better. However I am very disappointed that SCI hasn't announced any plans to play there this year. What is up with that?!?!? Its got to happen.

Offline RIPJJG

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2003, 11:17:09 PM »
Magical is what I have heard, and it's 25  years after a real good time. If Tuesday goes past 12:00, 8 years after a real bad time. Also, it's the only shows on tour without an opener.
Things are lining up, for shure!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2003, 09:36:23 AM by RIPJJG »

Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2003, 12:04:25 PM »
Hi All,

As a Colorado guy, I'm lucky to have Red Rocks in my back yard, but musically it is a mixed blessing.  While it looks beautiful, and the overall Red Rocks experience parallels the best of them, it can be less than impressive when the sound enters the picture.   Swirling winds and a steep incline close behind create all sorts of interesting troubles where taping is concerned.

I have found that my favorite mics for RR are the AKG 480's and MBHO 603 series.  For some reason, I have found DPA 4011 (a regular favorite of mine) to be nearly useless at Red Rocks and have only been more disappointed when I used omnis of any flavor.

One major exception to this is the Blues Traveller '97 tape that I made using Microtech Gefell omnis for the first set and AKG 482 (omnis) for the second.  I will have these available for download later this week.

Generally, I find that cardioids produce the best results and I keep them, as usual, about 8-12" apart.

I hope this helps.

See ya on the Rocks,

Marc

Offline hippies

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2003, 04:12:37 PM »
Generally, I find that cardioids produce the best results and I keep them, as usual, about 8-12" apart.

I hope this helps.

See ya on the Rocks,

Marc

hi Marc and all,

quick question.  utilizing what stereo config exactly?  point at the stacks method?  just curious, as there is so much talk of Line Array systems/ mono vs. stereo/ height and placement of mics, etc.  and yet the method you seem to choose is not one commonly chosen by experienced tapers as providing the best stereo image.  curious as to your thoughts on this subject.   ::)

Happy Retailing,

~Scott

btw:  as long as i see you're over here price matching your competitors, what's your best price on a set of ak50 caps?   ;)

Offline quantegy

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2003, 06:55:07 PM »
On the sonicsense website there is a great explanation of why Marc places his mics that way. It makes sense, sonicly that is. Check it out.

Offline plucks

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2003, 05:49:07 PM »
Hey all-
I have posted a Blues Traveler show - 1997/07/03 - from Red Rocks that also pairs as an omni comparison.  Normally, omni's aren't recommended at this venue, but this did happen to work!
 http://www.sonicsense.com/downloads.htm

Source: Set 1= Microtech Geffell m296>EAA>Tascam DA-p1 @48kHz (8' high, split 4', 16th row, DFCTS, high pass filter turned off at ~42 min)
Set 2 = AKG 480/ck 62>EAA>Tascam DA-p1 (8' high, split 4', 16th row, DFCTS)

Enjoy!
PHiL
« Last Edit: May 14, 2003, 10:13:19 PM by plucks »
"Then you have those who are completely loyal to Trey. Of course, they are the Republicans. Trey can play horribly, make mistakes, probably lie to the audience yet his backers will not waiver in their staunch support of him." | You may ask your self, how do you get a free bottle of champagne at dinner?  "Guest on Guest Violence"
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Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2003, 05:09:21 PM »
Generally, I find that cardioids produce the best results and I keep them, as usual, about 8-12" apart.

I hope this helps.

See ya on the Rocks,

Marc

hi Marc and all,

quick question.  utilizing what stereo config exactly?  point at the stacks method?  just curious, as there is so much talk of Line Array systems/ mono vs. stereo/ height and placement of mics, etc.  and yet the method you seem to choose is not one commonly chosen by experienced tapers as providing the best stereo image.  curious as to your thoughts on this subject.   ::)

Happy Retailing,

~Scott

btw:  as long as i see you're over here price matching your competitors, what's your best price on a set of ak50 caps?   ;)

Hi Scott and All,

I generally run my mics aiming to the outside of the P.A. system.  The more I like the sound of the venue, the wider I will angle the mics.  To offset the narrower angle that results if I am positioned too far back to make a 110 degree angle, I space the mics a bit further apart (8-12" instead of the 170mm--6.5" specific by ORTF).  Whether this works best on paper, in practice, or only in my own head, I'll leave to each individual listener.

As quantegy pointed out, I have written a detailed explanation of this on our website www.sonicsense.com/micplace.htm

As far as your Neumann price request, due to the very competitive pricing we offer, you will have to call or email sales@sonicsense.com directly for pricing.

As you have inquired extensively regarding my posts, I think you may find the following book quite informative as it covers many of the issues I address.

Sound System Engineering
Second Edition
Don and Carolyn Davis

This is considered by most audio professionals to be among the most useful resources in their library.

Happy Recording,

Marc

Offline creekfreak

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2003, 07:03:02 PM »
nice marc, been looking for a good book to get, +t
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Offline Chuck

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2003, 03:29:41 PM »
Quote
Generally, I find that cardioids produce the best results and I keep them, as usual, about 8-12" apart.

I hope this helps.

See ya on the Rocks,

Marc

I've heard it refered to here as the "Nutter" technique.
It's actually the way lots of guys used to tape the Grateful Dead starting in the 1980's with Nak 300's. Works best outside. IMHO.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
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Offline Kevin

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2003, 09:33:45 PM »
My 2 cents,
I just got back from red rocks yesterday and I taped the panic run.  I ran AKG 391>DMIC-20 with shure windscreens and I had my mics pointed to the outside of the stacks.  I was happy with the quality of the recording but had battery issues.  I even let a guy I met on my flight (who has a buddy that taped the show with better equiptment than me) listen to my recordings and he wanted a copy.  Anyway my advice would be try this method, get to the show really really really early and wait in line before the gates open (I had a little trouble getting aspot) take it for what its worth. Hope your tapes turn out well
Kevin
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Offline plucks

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2003, 12:42:09 PM »
Anyway my advice would be try this method, get to the show really really really early and wait in line before the gates open (I had a little trouble getting aspot) take it for what its worth. Hope your tapes turn out well
Kevin

Agreed!  I got in line early and it was worth it!  The tapes i made are some of the best I have made...And the new Claire PA system that Panic has has dispelled the curse of B&K/DPA not working great at Red Rocks.  It is true that older panic shows at red rocks with 4011s do not sound good at all.
Oh yeah, what is all this complaining I am hearing about on DigiPanic about bad taper conduct?

Phil
« Last Edit: July 03, 2003, 12:44:46 PM by plucks »
"Then you have those who are completely loyal to Trey. Of course, they are the Republicans. Trey can play horribly, make mistakes, probably lie to the audience yet his backers will not waiver in their staunch support of him." | You may ask your self, how do you get a free bottle of champagne at dinner?  "Guest on Guest Violence"
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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2003, 12:57:08 PM »
I'm going to get there early for The Dead shows. I want to try a variation of "critically spaced omnis" the first night. 2 ft spacing pointed at the edges of the stacks.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2003, 01:05:19 PM »
That 2ft spacing should be great!  It's not too wide to loose the phantom middle section that sometimes disappear when mics are space too far apart.  
Good luck
Phil
"Then you have those who are completely loyal to Trey. Of course, they are the Republicans. Trey can play horribly, make mistakes, probably lie to the audience yet his backers will not waiver in their staunch support of him." | You may ask your self, how do you get a free bottle of champagne at dinner?  "Guest on Guest Violence"
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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2003, 01:17:13 PM »
It's going to be my first time using omnis. I've always liked the omni recordings I've heard, so I'm going to try it. I built a 3 piece bar with long swing-out (a-la AKG T-Bar)"wings." Total spacing is a bit more than 2 ft, but can be adjusted somewhat. A key factor will be how close I can get. So I'm getting there early!
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline EScott

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2003, 03:17:03 PM »
I lent out my MK2 caps to a buddy who ran them with the tubes>V3 for the 1st night of Panic.  They are some of the worst tapes I heard from Red Rocks.  The two sets of subs I heard, from the 21's and U89's, sounded better by leaps and bounds.  

Eric
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But wouldn't bust a grape in a fruit fight"

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2003, 04:44:49 PM »
Richard set up a Bit Torrent for the 6/27 show.  Source was mk21>kc5>cmc6>v3 @16/44.1 TS/NOS

Here's the link:
http://torrent.pyite.com/wsp/wsp2003-06-27-1644.torrent

Offline wboswell

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2003, 10:54:18 AM »
I haven't had a listen to any other sources, but I am very impressed with the mk21>v3 source I have.  I think that subs are the way to go at that venue!

Offline dmonterisi

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2003, 11:01:29 AM »
i have subcards from 2 nights last year as well (Hubert i think) and they sound pretty good as well.  Richard's mk21 source does sound outstanding...however, i'm even more impressed with c. fox's M/S>tubes>v3 from sunday.  i think that's the best panic source i've ever heard from red rocks.  i know charles' came out too windy on saturday.  tim ran the u89's as subcards 2 nights and said they came out v. nice as well...you may be on to something, william...

-damon

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2003, 01:50:53 PM »
I haven't heard the m/s>tubes yet.  I'll get on digitalpanic.org tonight for the bit torrent.

I guess there were no FOB tapers this year.  All the sources I have seen were from the section.  Was the soundboard down lower this year, making FOB too close?  Not that I am disappointed with what I have heard, but lower in the ampitheatre usually reduces wind phasing.

Anyways, thanks for the heads up, Damon!


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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2003, 03:34:23 PM »
The vip section extended down to about the third or fourth row... too close to tape from so everyone was in the section.

I'm going to hopefully have my tapes out and circulating this week. Still trying to get the new soundcard working in the new laptop!

I haven't heard the m/s>tubes yet.  I'll get on digitalpanic.org tonight for the bit torrent.

I guess there were no FOB tapers this year.  All the sources I have seen were from the section.  Was the soundboard down lower this year, making FOB too close?  Not that I am disappointed with what I have heard, but lower in the ampitheatre usually reduces wind phasing.

Anyways, thanks for the heads up, Damon!



Offline wboswell

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2003, 03:58:43 PM »
Speaking of Red Rocks, has anyone ever noticed the FOB taper in The Earth Will Swallow You movie.  I noticed it in one of the Red Rocks sequences.  You can see some actives in an ORTF bar (or something of the sort) way up front.  I haven't seen it in a while, so I can't say which song it is.  If I can remember when I get home, I'll try and see what song it is.

Offline Wes

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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2003, 02:58:37 PM »
There are some very clear shots of the FOB section in the Live at Oak Mtn. DVD.  Seemed to be a pretty rowdy section, in just the few seconds you see it there is someone climbing all through it and everybody was boogie'ing down.
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Re:Best Setup for Red Rocks T/S
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2003, 04:45:53 PM »
I spaced matched Oktava omni's 26" and pointed them at the far sides of the PA on the first night of The Dead at Red Rocks. My recording sounds very good. Much better than my NOS cardioid recording the following night. Omni's sound so natural to me. If anyone wants the SHN's let me know. calicocourt@gbronline.com
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: (2) Microtech Gefell M300, (2) AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, (2) CAD GXL1200 (cardioid and sub-cardioid capsule & electronics mod), (2) Audix M1290-o, (2) Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, (2) Naiant MSH-1O, (2) Naiant AKG Active cables, (2) Church CA-11 (cardioid), (2) CAD C9, (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, Tascam DR-680, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

 

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