Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: bi-amping help please  (Read 3260 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 1st set only

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2118
  • Gender: Male
  • you are what you is
    • Don Poulsen Illustration and Graphic Design
bi-amping help please
« on: January 04, 2005, 09:56:59 AM »
I have a marantz sr6300 amp hooked up as a 6.1 system. I would like to bi-amp my front speakers(AR) which are bi-ampable.
Can I bi-amp these speakers by hooking the speaker systems b up to the other posts on the speakers? or do i need another amp? I do have another JVC prologic amp that is collecting dust at the moment and can be used for this but would rather not have it take up the space.
on the sr6300 manual there is a note about connecting the B terminals:

SPEAKER SYSTEMS B TERMINALS
Notes:
• When you use the speaker systems A and B simultaneously, the
connected speakers which are impeadance 12 to 16 ohms must
be used.

thanks
the show is over go home please.

Offline Craig T

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4249
    • LMA
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2005, 10:07:13 AM »
can't "bi-amp" with that marantz (without using an additional amp connected to the pre-outs), but you could "bi-wire".
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 12:39:40 PM by Craig T »
Schoeps cmc6/4v / Line Audio CM3, OM1 / ADK A51 / Church Audio CA-14
Naiant Tinybox v2.2 / NBox(P) / Apogee Mini-MP / Church Audio ST9200 / CA-UGLY
Sony PCM-M10 / Tascam DR-70D

Offline 1st set only

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2118
  • Gender: Male
  • you are what you is
    • Don Poulsen Illustration and Graphic Design
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2005, 11:50:20 AM »
just got off the phone with cambridge soundworks,

they said in order to "bi-amp" i need to send a patch from my marantz "pre out" to the other amplifiers  "tape/cd in" and then just hook the "highs" terminal on the speaker up to that other amp, and leave all the speaker connections as they are on the marantz.

make sense to you all? I find it weird to be having seprate volume controls though. one for high one for low

the show is over go home please.

Offline scervin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1739
  • Gender: Male
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2005, 12:23:23 PM »
you won't have 2 volume controls as the master volume knob will control both

Offline 1st set only

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2118
  • Gender: Male
  • you are what you is
    • Don Poulsen Illustration and Graphic Design
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2005, 01:10:59 PM »
you won't have 2 volume controls as the master volume knob will control both


so are you saying that the marantz will control both? what should I set the volume to on the other amp? sorry for the novice questions, just dont seem clear to me.
I will be going by this diagram. is this right?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 01:12:51 PM by abada »
the show is over go home please.

Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6505
  • large Marge sent me
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2005, 01:17:08 PM »
The seond amp has no volume control, it just amplifies the output of the preamp.  Your preamp volume control will set the level of the signal output to the amp. 

The only issue is that I would be concerned about is that the gain of your internal amps should match the gain of the external amp that your highend and lowend have properly matched output levels.

do a search in here on biamping and you'll find a link to a paaper that explains everything you need to know.
The first rule of amateur neurosurgery club is .... I forget.

Offline 1st set only

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2118
  • Gender: Male
  • you are what you is
    • Don Poulsen Illustration and Graphic Design
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2005, 01:20:41 PM »
The seond amp has no volume control, it just amplifies the output of the preamp.  Your preamp volume control will set the level of the signal output to the amp. 

The only issue is that I would be concerned about is that the gain of your internal amps should match the gain of the external amp that your highend and lowend have properly matched output levels.

do a search in here on biamping and you'll find a link to a paaper that explains everything you need to know.

Ahh thats just it I am not using a preamp. I am using an older JVC prologic reciver. do you  think it can be done? I will do a search as well.

thanks
the show is over go home please.

Offline jk labs

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • Straight wire!
    • Mics, pre and ADC...
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2005, 06:30:03 PM »

Surely your receiver has tape inputs that go to the preamp/volume control before it hits the power amp.
Connect here and adjust the volume control on the receiver to get the high SPL matched to the level from the lows.
Put ducttape on the volume control to fix it to this setting.

If you connect directly to the power amp AND your levels are too hot you'll need an (passive fixed) attenuator.
If you connect directly to the power amp and your levels are too low ...  then you need to connect by way of the
preamp stage.

In the picture provided the second amp runs the mids/highs only. I'd recommend putting a highpass filter in the feedline to block
the low energy from reaching the second power amp. The filter must be low enough in frequency to not interfere with the crossover. 

Some other issues might remain related to the crossover function within the speakers: If the amp driving the bottom gets a full range signal where does it dump the high frequency energy? What impedance does it see at high frequencies. The answer to these Qs lie in your speaker.

Jon   


 
       

Offline 1st set only

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2118
  • Gender: Male
  • you are what you is
    • Don Poulsen Illustration and Graphic Design
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2005, 09:30:09 AM »

Surely your receiver has tape inputs that go to the preamp/volume control before it hits the power amp.
Connect here and adjust the volume control on the receiver to get the high SPL matched to the level from the lows.
Put ducttape on the volume control to fix it to this setting.

If you connect directly to the power amp AND your levels are too hot you'll need an (passive fixed) attenuator.
If you connect directly to the power amp and your levels are too low ...  then you need to connect by way of the
preamp stage.

In the picture provided the second amp runs the mids/highs only. I'd recommend putting a highpass filter in the feedline to block
the low energy from reaching the second power amp. The filter must be low enough in frequency to not interfere with the crossover. 

Some other issues might remain related to the crossover function within the speakers: If the amp driving the bottom gets a full range signal where does it dump the high frequency energy? What impedance does it see at high frequencies. The answer to these Qs lie in your speaker.

Jon   
       

I think im gonna pass on this idea. I think i might have confused some here, I am not using a preamp or a power amp.  I am using a 6.1 surround reciever. and trying to biamp it with a jvc prologic reciever. I dont think i will really benifit from this as it seem as though there are too many issues to contend with "highpass filter/attenuator" neither of which i have.  I just wanted to use an old amp that is collecting dust.

+t to all
the show is over go home please.

Offline scervin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1739
  • Gender: Male
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2005, 11:01:59 AM »
I think that would be a good idea.  What speakers anyway?  Not sure this would help them if they are just consumer type.

Offline 1st set only

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2118
  • Gender: Male
  • you are what you is
    • Don Poulsen Illustration and Graphic Design
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2005, 12:24:19 PM »
AR (acoustic research) 200 series dont know the exact model #


« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 12:34:37 PM by abada »
the show is over go home please.

Offline scervin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1739
  • Gender: Male
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2005, 01:40:32 PM »
Are they $500 or $3K?  Can't find them in any search.  If around $500 I wouldn't worry about it.  I probably wouldn't unless the woofer size was 8"  or I was trying to push 5-6 drivers.  I've heard that bi-wire on the VSA VR-4jr makes a big differnce.  Knowing that I'd imagine bi-amp would be even better for them.

SC

Offline jk labs

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • Straight wire!
    • Mics, pre and ADC...
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2005, 04:29:48 PM »

I think im gonna pass on this idea. I think i might have confused some here, I am not using a preamp or a power amp.  I am using a 6.1 surround reciever. and trying to biamp it with a jvc prologic reciever. I dont think i will really benifit from this as it seem as though there are too many issues to contend with "highpass filter/attenuator" neither of which i have.  I just wanted to use an old amp that is collecting dust.

+t to all

Surely your surround receiver contains internally both a preamp/volume control and a slew of power amps.
The question is can you gain access to the main stereo pair of signals BEFORE they head to the internal power amp stage? 
Possibly on the rear of the unit, among a forest of in and outs, there is a pair of RCAs called ("main stereo") pre-out (and power in).

If these are not present you could mod the unit by adding a pair of wires from the input of the stereo amp stage and
to a pair of RCAs on the rear. 


What do you stand to gain from bi-amping?

You get a dedicated amplifier handling the lower frequencies and an equally dedicated amplifier handling the highs.
For those worried about amplifier class & idle current, cross-over distortion, inter-modular distortion etc etc
the benefits are numerous. However, if you think you can play much louder when biamping you are on the wrong track.

Having dedicated amplifiers for each speaker element means you potentially can simplify the speaker's crossover as well.
That is, move the crossover functionality from the speaker encloure and into or ahead of the amplifier. In this manner
each amplifer is asked to do even less work and will, as a result, produce even less distortion etc.

But, to reap these benefits your prologic receiver must in some way be audibly "better" than the surround sound receiver.   

Jon

Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6505
  • large Marge sent me
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2005, 04:47:18 PM »
This is the article I mentioned:  http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

Even if you choose not to bi-amp today, it's a decent read.

The first rule of amateur neurosurgery club is .... I forget.

Offline scervin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1739
  • Gender: Male
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2005, 05:32:25 PM »
Please do not take my post as bi-amping is useless.  Just a big difference bi-amping with a HT receiver and another older receiver vs. say some Aragon Palladiums or some Jeff Rowlands

SC

Offline 1st set only

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2118
  • Gender: Male
  • you are what you is
    • Don Poulsen Illustration and Graphic Design
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2005, 07:19:41 AM »
the show is over go home please.

Offline scervin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1739
  • Gender: Male
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2005, 10:57:32 AM »
I wouldn't worry about it.  More hassle than it will be worth.
SC

Offline 1st set only

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2118
  • Gender: Male
  • you are what you is
    • Don Poulsen Illustration and Graphic Design
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2005, 12:06:55 PM »
I wouldn't worry about it.  More hassle than it will be worth.
SC

Thats how i feel now
the show is over go home please.

Offline jk labs

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • Straight wire!
    • Mics, pre and ADC...
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2005, 12:51:16 PM »
Please do not take my post as bi-amping is useless.  Just a big difference bi-amping with a HT receiver and another older receiver vs. say some Aragon Palladiums or some Jeff Rowlands

SC

... while those on the other side of the fence of course argue that it is exactly the low cost amplifer, suffering badly under the strain of high power full range signals and inductive loads, that stands to gain significant performance increases from bi-amping. A truly high end amplifer shouldn't care.   

One can make a "phase inverted" argument for high end speakers: if they benefit from bi-amping then their cossovers are not high end and then neither are the speakers (but I admit I added this mostly to provoke :-) ).

Jon

Offline scervin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1739
  • Gender: Male
Re: bi-amping help please
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2005, 01:37:53 PM »
Please do not take my post as bi-amping is useless.  Just a big difference bi-amping with a HT receiver and another older receiver vs. say some Aragon Palladiums or some Jeff Rowlands

SC

... while those on the other side of the fence of course argue that it is exactly the low cost amplifer, suffering badly under the strain of high power full range signals and inductive loads, that stands to gain significant performance increases from bi-amping. A truly high end amplifer shouldn't care.   

One can make a "phase inverted" argument for high end speakers: if they benefit from bi-amping then their cossovers are not high end and then neither are the speakers (but I admit I added this mostly to provoke :-) ).

Jon

Ok, but would if they are of a monitor/bass module design??  I agree that if all drivers are in one cabinet and using upper end amps it probably isn't worth it either.  However, to run an amp to a speaker of "modular" design it might be significant.  I've heard this difference in some VSA VR-4 SEIII using Be Canto Evo6's.

SC

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.277 seconds with 47 queries.
© 2002-2018 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF