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Author Topic: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids  (Read 4545 times)

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Offline d5

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0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« on: February 09, 2005, 02:24:40 PM »
I taped a couple of GD shows in the 80's with this guy that used to setup his mic's near coincidence with a 0 (zero) degree angle. He said that Healy had told him that this was the best setup to use given the distance of the official tapers section from the speakers.

Edit: the mic's he used were some older AKG cardioids... I don't think they were 451's (but possibly) and definitely not 460's.

I tried this a few times on my own and the results were pretty good. It's not a very open soundstage, but definitely not mono sounding either. Also, the sense of distance seems less.

Has anyone else had experience with this configuration?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2005, 02:28:33 PM by d5 »
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Offline Craig T

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2005, 02:29:37 PM »
is 0 the same as 180? the mics facing "outwards", opposite direction of each other?
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hexyjones

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2005, 02:31:48 PM »
Lately I've been echewing the whole "pattern" thing for a more "point and shoot" approach...just point the damn things at the sounds you want to record!

I was a hardcore X/Yer for a long time...but lately - I hate to say it...just point them at the sound...the more on-axis the source the better...

I use NOS a lot now - but in most of the venues I go to - that is basically pointing them at the stacks...

I have a boom that I have modified to make 3 foot T-Bar for use this summer and in one bar I can think of...0 degrees is what I had in mind...

Offline d5

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2005, 02:35:56 PM »
is 0 the same as 180? the mics facing "outwards", opposite direction of each other?

nope... parallel to each other. Healy's 180 was for omni's, this was definitely card's
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Offline d5

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2005, 02:38:59 PM »
Lately I've been echewing the whole "pattern" thing for a more "point and shoot" approach...just point the damn things at the sounds you want to record!

I was a hardcore X/Yer for a long time...but lately - I hate to say it...just point them at the sound...the more on-axis the source the better...

I use NOS a lot now - but in most of the venues I go to - that is basically pointing them at the stacks...

I have a boom that I have modified to make 3 foot T-Bar for use this summer and in one bar I can think of...0 degrees is what I had in mind...

This would be kinda the ultimate point and shoot, wouldn't it

I tend to use either x-y or ortf, so going back to these tapes was kind of surprise based on how good they sounded.
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Offline Brian

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2005, 02:40:53 PM »
not mono?  I'm finding that VERY hard to believe.  any way you can post a sample?

 

Offline bhtoque

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2005, 02:42:46 PM »
So you're saying they were AB, but with no space between? I'd think you'd get a lot of phase cancellation, but I could be wrong.

like this??

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Offline Craig T

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2005, 02:43:31 PM »
so this is "A-B" cards.
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Offline pfife

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2005, 02:45:22 PM »
So you're saying they were AB, but with no space between? I'd think you'd get a lot of phase cancellation, but I could be wrong.

first thing I thought too....  ???
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Offline d5

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2005, 02:48:34 PM »
So you're saying they were AB, but with no space between? I'd think you'd get a lot of phase cancellation, but I could be wrong.

like this??

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JAson

If I remember, it was a standard t-bar, so they would have been about 4 inches apart
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Offline bhtoque

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2005, 02:55:22 PM »
Ok, then it was A-B cards. I've run guns and omni's that way, but not cards.

The wider you spread them, the better the image will be. If you have a longer bar, like the bogen or k&M, you can get really good results.

That far back, I'm sure AB helps keep the room and crowd off axis, which will kill some of the distance sound.

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Offline Kyle

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2005, 03:14:07 PM »
I have used this technique several times when I was rather off-center (or the venue sound sucked) - on the whole, it has worked well.   Again, not the most open soundstage (prolly somewhat mono), but quite listenable. ymmv. I usually run dina though.
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Offline d5

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2005, 05:01:41 PM »
...but definitely not mono sounding either. Also, the sense of distance seems less.

not mono?  I'm finding that VERY hard to believe.  any way you can post a sample?

What I had in mind when I wrote definitely not mono, was mono soundboards, which I have a few but can't stand listening to. This is a lot more listenable.

I have used this technique several times when I was rather off-center (or the venue sound sucked) - on the whole, it has worked well.   Again, not the most open soundstage (prolly somewhat mono), but quite listenable. ymmv. I usually run dina though.

This is a better description. I agree that the soundstage isn't the most open, but it surprised me how much it actually was.

I have a Max Creek analog from 88 or 89 that I can post on archive.org in the few days
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Offline Tall Adam

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2005, 05:10:45 PM »
matt (dgrayshn) runs his 414 cards AB a lot and swears by it...ask him...or hear for yourself: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dgrayshn%20AND%20mediatype%3Aetree%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

Offline spreetaper

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Re: 0 degree, near coincidence cardioids
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2005, 05:24:59 PM »
matt (dgrayshn) runs his 414 cards AB a lot and swears by it...ask him...or hear for yourself: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dgrayshn%20AND%20mediatype%3Aetree%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

this would be me....

I've not had any phase problems while running AB.. I also managed to convet a religious XY taper over to AB... we both agree that XY to our ears often does not sound realistic... to us AB sounds like you are actually in a room with space around you.. XY sounds far too often like you are in a box... thats the best way I know how to desrcibe it :-)
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