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Author Topic: Split cardioid's?  (Read 5759 times)

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Split cardioid's?
« on: March 23, 2005, 04:45:00 PM »
Any history/recommendations/use/ideas/experience on this? I have a 24" split bar for my AT's. Pro's and con's? Thanks....
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2005, 04:50:52 PM »
TRY IT!

thats my recomendation :)

ive heard ghood things, nevertried it myself tho
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2005, 04:54:41 PM »
Well, I tried it the other night -- on-stage -- and had horrible bass response... but I believe that was waaaay more due to the band and music, as opposed to the setup. Basically, I'm now questioning my entire taping existence. ;D
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2005, 04:56:37 PM »
I've run them split about 9ft, came out good!  There was a bit of the "hole in the middle" thing happnin, but not too bad though.  I prolly wouldn't do it again split that far, but I would def try the split cards again.
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2005, 05:09:42 PM »
I ran split cardioids at one of the Grateful Dead 1990 Cal Expo shows.
I split them about thirty feet, on either side of the soundboard/lighting area.
It's a weird sounding recording. I never split them like that again.
I'd suggest MUCH less spacing... say 4 feet maybe.
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2005, 07:29:07 PM »
Scott Brown split cards 15 feet in NYC at the Bowery for the Warren & Friends show back in Feb.  That recording is rediculously good...

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2005, 07:40:11 PM »
Well, I tried it the other night -- on-stage -- and had horrible bass response... but I believe that was waaaay more due to the band and music, as opposed to the setup. Basically, I'm now questioning my entire taping existence. ;D

did you use any sort of HPF? I find when one is on stage or real close that will help....

on this topic...I leave the splitting to omni's...but give it a try, its fun to experiment
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2005, 07:45:53 PM »
Well, I tried it the other night -- on-stage -- and had horrible bass response... but I believe that was waaaay more due to the band and music, as opposed to the setup. Basically, I'm now questioning my entire taping existence. ;D

did you use any sort of HPF? I find when one is on stage or real close that will help....

on this topic...I leave the splitting to omni's...but give it a try, its fun to experiment

Well, my AT8533x's have a bass roll-off but I was recording tabla and electronic drums from a few feet away and my stand was positioned within about 8 monitors in a 20 foot space. It's was unnecessarily loud at times and really ambient and quiet at other times. Fareed Haque Group.
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2005, 08:03:04 PM »
Scott Brown split cards 15 feet in NYC at the Bowery for the Warren & Friends show back in Feb. That recording is rediculously good...
I was gonna just mention this tape! When I was downloading it I thought it was gonna have a HUGE hole, but it sounds quite nice! Maybe thats because in comparison to an arena, it was a small room...
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2005, 08:40:30 PM »
Here's a thread to a recent split card:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=12210
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2005, 09:52:02 PM »
Well, I tried it the other night -- on-stage -- and had horrible bass response... but I believe that was waaaay more due to the band and music, as opposed to the setup. Basically, I'm now questioning my entire taping existence. ;D

directional mics are subject to the proximity effect... look it up if you don't know it, it's an important concept when taping on stage or up front
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2005, 09:52:36 PM »
Scott Brown split cards 15 feet in NYC at the Bowery for the Warren & Friends show back in Feb. That recording is rediculously good...

I've heard some that are around 15-20' and they are pretty nice...
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2005, 10:31:28 PM »
Scott Brown split cards 15 feet in NYC at the Bowery for the Warren & Friends show back in Feb. That recording is rediculously good...
I was gonna just mention this tape! When I was downloading it I thought it was gonna have a HUGE hole, but it sounds quite nice! Maybe thats because in comparison to an arena, it was a small room...

yeah, the bowery is a small room and it really works well there.  in a bigger room, it might start sounding weird.  but hey, you never know until you try it, right? :)

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2005, 11:00:42 AM »
directional mics are subject to the proximity effect

Proximity effect is the increase in the low-frequency sensitivity of a microphone when the sound source is close to it. This is particularly true of cardioid, directional microphones. To counter that, most high-end directional microphones use a low-frequency roll-off filter to restore the response to its flat, natural balance. Some microphones have a user-selectable switch to control the filter.

I'd buy that... but I've ran on-stage w/ hyper's before and had no problem. I'm going to chalk this one up to "not being completely familiar with my new equipment" and possibly "not using a bass roll-off". Not to mention I don't "shower regularly", nor do I "brush my teeth" or "wash behind my ears".
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2005, 11:33:28 AM »
Scott Brown split cards 15 feet in NYC at the Bowery for the Warren & Friends show back in Feb.  That recording is rediculously good...

After reading what Scott wrote about split cards at the Bowery w/ it's u shaped balcony., I had to try it at the Tabernacle.  I've never been completely  happy w/ my tapes from there.  I'm glad I tried, best sound so far from that room.  It is different sounding from din but there is definitly no hole in the middle.

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2005, 11:39:54 AM »
directional mics are subject to the proximity effect

Proximity effect is the increase in the low-frequency sensitivity of a microphone when the sound source is close to it. This is particularly true of cardioid, directional microphones. To counter that, most high-end directional microphones use a low-frequency roll-off filter to restore the response to its flat, natural balance. Some microphones have a user-selectable switch to control the filter.

I'd buy that... but I've ran on-stage w/ hyper's before and had no problem. I'm going to chalk this one up to "not being completely familiar with my new equipment" and possibly "not using a bass roll-off". Not to mention I don't "shower regularly", nor do I "brush my teeth" or "wash behind my ears".

moral of this story...keep the damn 463's, Steve! ;D
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2005, 11:44:34 AM »
moral of this story...keep the damn 463's, Steve! ;D

Well, if there was a way to run them with active cables AND my mod'd bodies, I would keep them. I could do some experimenting and tinkering with the A61 swivel adapters and try to make them into an active unit of some sort... but I'm no audiophile gearhead....
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2005, 12:14:01 PM »
moral of this story...keep the damn 463's, Steve! ;D

Well, if there was a way to run them with active cables AND my mod'd bodies, I would keep them. I could do some experimenting and tinkering with the A61 swivel adapters and try to make them into an active unit of some sort... but I'm no audiophile gearhead....


when do you need actives? use the at's for stealth, the akgs for open. I can't think of one situation where you can't get away with full bodies fob or onstage here in town.
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2005, 12:26:04 PM »
moral of this story...keep the damn 463's, Steve! ;D

I couldn't agree more!

Quote
Well, if there was a way to run them with active cables AND my mod'd bodies, I would keep them. I could do some experimenting and tinkering with the A61 swivel adapters and try to make them into an active unit of some sort... but I'm no audiophile gearhead....

PM sent
« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 12:56:32 PM by goose »

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2005, 01:51:17 PM »
moral of this story...keep the damn 463's, Steve! ;D

Well, if there was a way to run them with active cables AND my mod'd bodies, I would keep them. I could do some experimenting and tinkering with the A61 swivel adapters and try to make them into an active unit of some sort... but I'm no audiophile gearhead....


when do you need actives? use the at's for stealth, the akgs for open. I can't think of one situation where you can't get away with full bodies fob or onstage here in town.

You're totally right.... the problem is, I see myself taping less and less as the years go by. I'm tired of seeing the same old bands.... I look at festival line-up's like Bonnaroo, Wakarusa, etc. and out of 100 bands listed there are maybe 2-3 I'd be excited to see anymore. How many times can I go see MMW, SCI, Mule... I've seen them all 7-10 times and barely listen to the shows I've got. I guess I'd like to hit more/other genre's of shows more often, but many of those bands don't allow open taping... thus, I wouldn't be able to use the AKG's anyway. I'd actually like to keep them for the principle... they're great mics and I love them... but if someone else can get some good use out of them, I'd rather unload them. Fwiw, Dean is considering buying them from me... so they'd still stay in the Twin Cities at least. :-\
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Offline kgreener

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2005, 03:51:00 PM »

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2005, 09:34:41 PM »
my last set up using my new'ish SP C3 LD mics was a split card deal at the Artists Quarter.  Happy Apple's third night in a row  and I'd run omnis split at the lip.  wasn't getting much in the way of sound from the PA sitting underneath them as it was.  So I swithched them to card, spaced them about 5-6' in an A-B orientation.  Then I ran my other deck using AT/es943/omnis in a binaural "head" that I made and used that to capture the PA material from a bit further back in the room.  Matrixed the omni w/the cards and it doesn't sound too bad... Sorry your effort was less than satisfying.  You disapoint the band I'm sure. ;)



Well, I figured out that my bass roll-off switch was off (new gear, ugh!) so I'm blaming that as the #1 culprit of bassiness. I have no fear of running that way again.... I look forward to trying it from the post on 4/3 for Drew Emmitt. :)
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2005, 10:32:11 AM »
phish 12-29-95, split mk4's ~10ft.
unreal quality, one of the best ever IMO

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2005, 12:17:05 PM »
phish 12-29-95, split mk4's ~10ft.
unreal quality, one of the best ever IMO

http://db.etree.org/shninfo_detail.php?shnid=20748

Definitely. I think the bigger the venue the better chance of a great recording w/ split card's -- at least there's more room for error with the direction of the mics. It may not work *quite* as well in a small bar setting. Of course, I'm only splitting mine about 2 feet. ;)
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2005, 01:25:47 PM »
phish 12-29-95, split mk4's ~10ft.
unreal quality, one of the best ever IMO

http://db.etree.org/shninfo_detail.php?shnid=20748

Definitely. I think the bigger the venue the better chance of a great recording w/ split card's -- at least there's more room for error with the direction of the mics. It may not work *quite* as well in a small bar setting. Of course, I'm only splitting mine about 2 feet. ;)

see, I disagree with this. I wouldn't normally run split cards from the back of an arena like the tape in question. I have that tape and it came out pretty nice but in general I wouldn't split if I was taping in a large boomy arena, I think you would ordinarily just exaserbate the issue.
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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2005, 01:36:08 PM »
I am going to try split cards at an outdoor show this year....hopefully at the cary amphitheatre where the is no roof...I am betting it will be a good result considerng it shoud be less "boomy"

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2005, 02:37:15 PM »
phish 12-29-95, split mk4's ~10ft.
unreal quality, one of the best ever IMO

http://db.etree.org/shninfo_detail.php?shnid=20748

Definitely. I think the bigger the venue the better chance of a great recording w/ split card's -- at least there's more room for error with the direction of the mics. It may not work *quite* as well in a small bar setting. Of course, I'm only splitting mine about 2 feet. ;)

see, I disagree with this. I wouldn't normally run split cards from the back of an arena like the tape in question. I have that tape and it came out pretty nice but in general I wouldn't split if I was taping in a large boomy arena, I think you would ordinarily just exaserbate the issue.

I see your point with the boom-factor, but is an ORTF or DIN configuration in an arena really going to eliminate much of it anyway? IMO XY and/or bass roll-off would be your best bet for boom-elimination no matter what size the venue. My point of split card's in an arena/amphitheater has more to do with the amount of space the music is taking up. At an arena you might have 50-200 feet of space between the P.A. and your mics (ie: more room to absorb sound without losing much clarity), whereas in a small bar or club you'd be so close to the stage that you may create more of a hole in the recording... some instruments in one mic, some in the other, but maybe missing the middle? My 2 cents....

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2005, 09:59:34 AM »
Fwiw, here's what I was attempting with my split card's (again, a little bassy due to too many monitors and no bass roll-off)

(credit to O-Dog for the pic; Natelsky's DPA's clamped under mine)

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2005, 02:35:28 PM »
I ran split cards a few weeks back and for the room, i think it sounds great
small square club about 10' apart, 12' up, 15' back
check out the encore or tracks 6>9 on disc 2

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2005, 06:17:15 AM »
Quote
Not to mention I don't "shower regularly", nor do I "brush my teeth" or "wash behind my ears".

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2020, 11:20:42 AM »
Hi!
Thought I'd tack on to this thread since it has the most appropriate title...

I'm going to try an indoor recording at a club tonight with an XY center and a split pair of "somethings".  I've got Chris Church's CA-11 cardioids and can use them as-is for one option.  My bar is adjustable (rabbit ear antennae...) from 2' to about 4'.
Question - If I go with split cardioids, where best to point them, and how far to split?  I'll be at the soundboard and the PA stack angle will be about 50-60 degrees as a guess.

I was also pondering taking the cardioids and wrapping the back vents with gaff tape to give them more omni character.  The vents won't be totally inactive since gaff tape will have some frequency-dependent bleed, and even if the vents were perfectly sealed acoustically-wise, the frequency response of the mics might be messed up (fix it in post!).
If this mod seems workable and I go this route, where should they be pointed and how far to split??

This is not a trick question - I'll accept any and all answers!
Thanks!

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2020, 12:34:01 PM »
Question - If I go with split cardioids, where best to point them, and how far to split?  I'll be at the soundboard and the PA stack angle will be about 50-60 degrees as a guess.

Check out Gutbucket's PAS table.  That should get you dialed in nicely.  I believe it's linked in the signature line of his posts.
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Offline rumbleseat

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2020, 12:56:52 PM »
Thanks heathen!
I hadn't thought about using that table.  I was thinking that the split cards would be a secondary source for "ambience" or "width" or whatever we're calling it, but setting them up according to the table should give give something listenable.  Heck, its possible that they might sound better than the XY in the center!
AKG C480B CK61 cards or AKG C568EB or Church CA-11 cards >  Canare L-4E6S with Neutrik EMC > Tascam DR-680 MKII or DR-44WL > memories

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2020, 08:54:16 PM »
Wide split cardioids + X/Y cardioids in the center.. hmmm.   One thing I'd suggest say is not to block the vents as that's unlikely to work out well (but try it anyway for something you don't care about and report back!)

If inside your best bet will probably be to either:
1) run the wide-spaced cards PAS, and the X/Y pair angled +/- 45 degrees (90 degrees total).
      -or sort of the inverse of that-
2) run the X/Y pair PAS, and the wide-spaced cards angled +/- 45 degrees or more.

^
The second is actually somewhat similar to the front-directional-core of my OMT rig which uses a M/S pair in the center between +/-45 degree angled supercardioids spaced about 2' apart (~1' to either side of the center M/S pair).  It also includes wide-spaced omnis and a pair of rear-facing mics, but I typically listen to various combinations of the mics to asses what is working well and it usually sounds very good with just the center coincident pair and the +/- 45 degree angled near-spaced pair on their own.

If outside in the sweet spot I'd probably go more radical and run the X/Y pair PAS and the wide-spaced cards angled +/- 90 degrees (pointing directly to either side)

Check out Gutbucket's PAS table.  That should get you dialed in nicely.  I believe it's linked in the signature line of his posts.

That's primarily intended for optimally angling/spacing a single pair of PAS mics.  When using a combination of a spaced pair plus a single center mic or coincident center pair, you should push wider with the spaced pair (spaced, angled or both) than the PAS table suggests.  Twice as much is not out of line and should work well.  Otherwise you can get to much conflicting in the middle.  Go wider to leave room for the coincident pair to do its thing.
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Offline rumbleseat

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Re: Split cardioid's?
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2020, 05:17:59 PM »
Thanks to everyone for their advice!

The show I recorded was Railroad Earth at the Lincoln Theatre in Raleigh, NC on Feb 21, 2020.  Three other tapers captured the show, making for some interesting sonic comparisons.  My mics were at about 8’, while the others were about 8.5’ to 9’.  The stands were on a riser about 3’ off the main floor.

I ended up using a 42” split for the CA-11 cards with a roughly 90 degree angle.  The PA stacks were at about 40 degrees, so the cards were aimed well outside the stacks. 

The four recordings are linked below – queued to the song “Monkey”.  The first three don’t list any processing, so they may be raw recordings.  My final recording, however has lots of EQ and a bit of compression.  The volumes of these selections are undoubtedly different, so try to ignore the “louder sounds better” instinct.  I’ve also provided links to my two raw recordings if you’re interested in giving them a listen.

This was my first time out with the DR-44WL.  It behaved nicely, even though it dropped the WiFi connection with my phone about half way through the show.  No matter, it kept recording anyway and politely split the file when it reached the 2GB limit.

1) Schoeps MK4/CMC6 > Sound Devices 744T by Robbie Dunn
https://archive.org/details/rre2020-02-21.MK4.FLAC24-48/RRE+2020-02-21+s1t09.flac

2) sE Electronics sE8 > Tascam DR-100 mkIII by Fletcher Robinson
https://archive.org/details/rre2020-02-21.rre/09-+Monkey.wav

3) Rode NT4 > Roland R-07 by Terry Killebrew
https://archive.org/details/rre2020-02-21.WinterTour/09.Monkey.flac

4) Split CA11 cards with Naiant PFAs plus Tascam DR-44WL internals > DR-44WL by Randy Hoke
https://archive.org/details/rre2020-02-21.dr44wl.flac24/rre2020-02-21t09.flac

    4a) Raw DR-44WL internal mics (FLAC 24/48)
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GP_NzI2sQPRatzK2raQXvdrE0vbQVyY1

    4b) Raw CA11 mics (FLAC 24/48)
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HUJkLzfhVv4uz-KJQDIMSabEJnBzWZC1
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 05:21:59 PM by rumbleseat »
AKG C480B CK61 cards or AKG C568EB or Church CA-11 cards >  Canare L-4E6S with Neutrik EMC > Tascam DR-680 MKII or DR-44WL > memories

 

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