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Author Topic: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.  (Read 3229 times)

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Offline sullen

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? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« on: March 18, 2006, 08:59:43 AM »
So im looking for an upgrade after filming a few weeks ago were a band did a set
where 80 of the 90 minutes was played under a barely luminated soft blue light....

I was not happy, i was in the 5th row and the picture is not exactly pretty.

So im browsing camcorder info dot com.
Sony is out, no mic input and i dont have time to synch in post.
The JVC model looks like an awkward machine to say the least.
I don't see any Cannons? Or am i missing something?

Brings me to Panasonic's line.

Reviews sound great.
Have mic-in, looks very low profile, highly praised picture quality.

However, looking at their low light ratings, and even the low light pictures of these cams,
dosen't seem so great anymore, seems the grain is there, almost as much as a decent 1ccd....

Are these things really worth the extra $$$ for "what we do"  ?
Has anyone here shot with both 1 and 3 ccd dv's through their time filming?

Will they capture the reds and blues under concert lighting where the
1ccds usually lose their lifelike imagery?

Any reviews, suggestions would be nice to hear.
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Offline VA_TAPER

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Re: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2006, 11:30:38 AM »
budget?

I'm loving the Sony HVR-A1U

here's a short mpeg-2 DVD res clip from a Glen Phillips show that was really low light
http://www.comebackdownload.com/waitingdvd.mpg
My recordings and transfers at archive.org: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=berryman%20AND%20mediatype%3Aetree%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

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Offline VA_TAPER

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Re: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2006, 12:09:10 PM »
b.t.w. - the A1U is a 1 CMOS HD design, it is pretty small, GS400 size, and is great in low light (2/3" chip) and for DVD conversions due to using a 4:2:0 colorspace.

peace, chris
My recordings and transfers at archive.org: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=berryman%20AND%20mediatype%3Aetree%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

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Offline sullen

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Re: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2006, 12:31:37 PM »
thanx, budget is far below that though!

like to spend under 1000$

looking at the panasonic GS-xxx models
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Offline BayTaynt3d

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Re: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2006, 03:42:53 PM »
b.t.w. - the A1U is a 1 CMOS HD design, it is pretty small, GS400 size, and is great in low light (2/3" chip) and for DVD conversions due to using a 4:2:0 colorspace.

peace, chris

Just for the record, the A1U is surely NOT a 2/3" chip, and in general CMOS performs worse in low light (more noise) than does CCD at the same chip sizes. In this case, the A1U might provide better low light than a GS because it's a 1/3" chip against a 1/5" chip (or 1/4" for the GS400 which is discontinued). Also, in general, a 3 CCD camera will do better with color, but a comparison b/w these two cams is trickier because the A1U is recording to HDV which has a 4:2:0 colorspace whereas DV has a 4:1:1 colorspace. Low light and noise can be a function of a lot of things, and in fact, besides the SIZE of the chip, the SIZE of the pixels come into play. More tiny pixels have harder time soaking up light than do larger pixels, and it is well known in DV camps than the prosumer and consumer HDV cams (for the most part) are a few stops different than a solid DV cam (with the same size chips).

Anyway, I own a GS400 and love it, but it has a 1/4", which is better than avg for consumer side but lower than typical 1/3" for prosumer (and way lower than 2/3" pro betacam, etc.) The newer GS's have the more typical 1/5" chips of consumer lines, and although the GS rocks, and it's color quality is (I think) unmatched at the relative price points, it's not the best low light performer. Not sure what is really, because I'm more familar with prosumer DV cameras, where on a strictly low light basis, the PD150/170 is probably best, with the DVX100 line next, and the GL/XL2 series last.
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Offline VA_TAPER

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Re: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2006, 05:09:03 PM »
you are correct about the chip size, my typo!  The cheap CMOS chips are noisy, but high grade CMOS chips are quickly replacing CCDs in even high-end digital still cameras i.e. D20, etc.  The GS400 is a sweet camera, and was my number one choice before I decided to go HDV.  From what I've hear, the low light performance can be very nice in the progressive mode as the sensitivity increases and noise is lowered by row-pair summation.  3CCDs have their problems, I also run a PD150, and yeah you can shoot in the dark, but the picture still looks like video (honestly in good light I am much happier with GS400 footage than the 150), the 400 can be very filmic esp. in procinema mode.  The advantage of shooting in HDV that sold me is the 4:2:0 colorspace, resolution and clarity.  I know the reason DV is 4:1:1, but that doesn't help me for going to DVD, AVC, or MP@HL. 

yes, with prosumer HDV the sensitivity is a few stops down from DV but the end result when exported to DVD is superior IMO.  Noise is much more like film grain and therefore much more tolerable and the color really pops out nicely. 

That being said, I would highly suggest the original poster consider a GS400 given price range and reports the newer Pannys aren't quite the gem the 400 is.

peace, chris
My recordings and transfers at archive.org: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=berryman%20AND%20mediatype%3Aetree%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

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Offline JasonR

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Re: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2006, 07:02:52 PM »
I don't see any Cannons? Or am i missing something?

Cannon makes sheets.  Search for Canon.

When I worked for Canon's customer support, I swear I got at least a few calls a week with questions about threadcount, dyes, etc.

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Offline firmdragon

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Re: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2006, 09:18:15 PM »

Will they capture the reds and blues under concert lighting where the
1ccds usually lose their lifelike imagery?

Any reviews, suggestions would be nice to hear.

i used to think my old 1ccd camcorder was pretty good at capturing colors and all that.  but once i started taping w/ 3ccd. you really can't look at 1ccd the same.  you'll notice that the colors on the 1ccd are all "washed out in comparison to the 3ccd."  i'll up a sample to show you the difference.

Offline BayTaynt3d

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Re: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2006, 09:20:41 PM »
Also, don't underestimate the need for color correction in post. It's actually not that hard to adjust/fix color issues in your NLE.
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Offline firmdragon

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Re: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2006, 09:49:52 PM »
Also, don't underestimate the need for color correction in post. It's actually not that hard to adjust/fix color issues in your NLE.

any good online tutorials out there?

admitted, i was going to show a sample of a 2 cam i did, but the difference in colors isn't really that noticable on a video compressed via mpg/wmv.  but trust me there is a noticible difference when you watch on tv.

same show, mostly reds. 

a 1ccd:
http://s18.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0BDG67X1YCY7E35G5SN2WSI2NZ

a 3ccd:
http://s8.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=20UANFGKNA1XW1GLFKFK1CQBI1

Offline BayTaynt3d

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Re: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2006, 10:08:05 PM »
Also, you should know that it is well known that reds in DV often don't play nice. What NLE are you using? Color correcting tools are often not available in some of the free editors, and are sometimes plugins to other NLEs. Do a google search for the name of your NLE and color correction. Like "vegas color correction" or something like that. As long as the colors aren't digitally clipped (you can see in the scope in your NLE), you can often fix color problems. This is done all of the time in exactly the situation you describe -- matching color between two different cameras.
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Offline firmdragon

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Re: ? About 3CCD and stealth filming.
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2006, 11:12:47 PM »
Also, you should know that it is well known that reds in DV often don't play nice. What NLE are you using? Color correcting tools are often not available in some of the free editors, and are sometimes plugins to other NLEs. Do a google search for the name of your NLE and color correction. Like "vegas color correction" or something like that. As long as the colors aren't digitally clipped (you can see in the scope in your NLE), you can often fix color problems. This is done all of the time in exactly the situation you describe -- matching color between two different cameras.

i'm using vegas 6.0 right now.  will look into that i'm doing a multi now, maybe i can sneak it in. +Thanks.

 

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