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Author Topic: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII  (Read 65778 times)

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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #195 on: August 14, 2006, 09:34:33 AM »
After many recordings I have been trending toward the opinion that the R09 lacks bass in a not insignificant way.  Saturday night's effort further confirmed that.  Make no mistake, you can get decent, solid bass from the r09.. I am just comparing it to v3 > 722 or (even more bass) bg1/dav > 722.  It is possible that the analog input of the microtrack handles bass more accurately than the r09 but I don't have hardly any analog > mt recordings.

It would be cool if someone with an r09 and the ability could trace the line-in circuit for a bass rolloff filter.  I am hopeful that we'll find it on the board and could bypass it. I have not opened my r09 up yet and I'd have to do some studying to figure out what to look for..


So on saturday I ran:

MG200 DIN > splitter >
   >  v3 spdif > microtrack 24/44
         xlr out > r09 24/48
   >  bg1/dav > 722 24/96

I still need to spend a lot of time on those sources to get them to where I can post samples but initial listen confirms the lack of bass in the r09 source.

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Offline drewloo

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #196 on: August 14, 2006, 09:38:31 AM »
Maybe it's related to why it can handle such a hot signal?  Interesting....

Offline sleepypedro

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #197 on: August 14, 2006, 09:42:06 AM »
fwiw, one of my early tests of the r09 was:

schoeps mk4v > vms02ib > edirol r4  +
mbho omni > r4

then i connected to the r09 via the RCA outputs, passing a blend of both pairs.

i haven't listened to the r09 mix (other than brief spotcheck), but i've got samples available (both individual stereo pairs, and the r09 mix) if anyone would like to listen and test.

artist was tony levin, bassist extraordinaire.

Offline udovdh

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #198 on: August 14, 2006, 11:01:12 AM »
It would be cool if someone with an r09 and the ability could trace the line-in circuit for a bass rolloff filter.  I am hopeful that we'll find it on the board and could bypass it. I have not opened my r09 up yet and I'd have to do some studying to figure out what to look for..
Capacitor in the line-in path needs probably a bigger value?

Quote
I still need to spend a lot of time on those sources to get them to where I can post samples but initial listen confirms the lack of bass in the r09 source.
How much roll-off is there from what frequency? I.e.: how do we find out?
Could we compare some generated sweep with the unfiltered version?

Offline Zaphod

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #199 on: August 14, 2006, 11:40:42 AM »
Alright, I'm f'n pissed. The r09 source had the bass cut on  :-[

And I just verified that it does apply to the line in.

I guess that is what happens when you drink margaritas all day and then try and setup a 3 way comp in 15 minutes  ::)

I still think the r09 may be lacking in bass but it won't be verified with this comp.



My first thought when I read your initial post was "hmmm I wonder if the R-09 cuts bass via line-in with the bass filter on?"  ;)

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #200 on: August 14, 2006, 11:51:40 AM »
Alright, I'm f'n pissed. The r09 source had the bass cut on  :-[

And I just verified that it does apply to the line in.

I guess that is what happens when you drink margaritas all day and then try and setup a 3 way comp in 15 minutes  ::)

:lol:

A valiant effort, FL.  I've had my chare of flubbed comps - it's good for you, builds moral fiber.  Anyway, the R09 must really suck if it has less bass than the utterly thin, lifeless, tinny, bass-suckage V3.  :P
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Offline udovdh

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #201 on: August 14, 2006, 12:40:17 PM »
What are the right parameters to format a 4GB card for the R09? (clustersize, etc)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #202 on: August 14, 2006, 01:06:55 PM »
I've been using the Bodyglove cell case with the R-09.  I found I could operate the transport switch through the clear cover and the mic gain and headphone level buttons through the elastic sides of the case, but needed to modify the cover a bit for access to the headphone jack, hold switch and power button.  I cut a few holes with a pair of scissors and kept the edges from unraveling by applying super glue around the edges like a grommet.  Needed to sand, trim and reapply the super glue a few times to get a nice sealed hole that was unaffected by the stretching going on around it.  Clear nail polish might work for this too.  Trying to melt the edges of the hole didn't work so well for me. I also removed the belt clip since it was too bulky in my pocket and didn’t allow the recorder to sit flat on a table or stacked with the DPA preamp.  The case is snug and works great - the only time I take the recorder out to change batteries or dump the card.  A ratty little square of gaffer's tape hides the red recording beacon.
[edited to move the photo's here]
« Last Edit: August 14, 2006, 06:19:37 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #203 on: August 14, 2006, 01:28:16 PM »
Grace specs the analog output to max out at the first set of amber lights, maximum.
So, you're either running for analog, or digital, with neither being optimized, or one possibly overloaded.

I'm not sure that is really a problem.  But, yep, it is necessary to compromise on the levels if you are using the a/d and analog output of the v3.  This table is from the v3 manual:

dBFS  ANALOG OUT      ANALOG OUT     LED COLOR
     BALANCED (dBu) UNBALANCED (dBu)
   0      +25             +19           RED
  -3      +22             +16          AMBER
  -6      +19             +13          AMBER
  -9      +16             +10          AMBER
 -12      +13             +7           GREEN
 -15      +10             +4           GREEN
 -21      +4               -2          GREEN
 -27       -2              -8          GREEN

The DAV/BG1 preamp outputs are just as hot if run to 0dB, +25dBu. A good pre should not distort at those levels.  I agree that there isn't much point in running so hot that you must attenuate on the A/D device. In this case I was running the r09 below 8 so there was attenuation.

I usually set the gain on the 722 to 0 and set the pre levels based on the 722 meters.  I think it would be interesting to do a comp comparing how the 722/etc sound with a +25 dBu signal vs. +16.

In the case of this comp, I ran the v3 somewhat cool for both sources.  The v3 was run below clipping.  I won't know the exact level of each source until I muck with it more.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #204 on: August 14, 2006, 02:53:25 PM »
Check out my funky baffle for the mini DPA's over in the mic threads: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=70134.0
also pics of a couple baffles for the internal R-09 mics.  enjoy.

[Edit: well I #@$%'ed up and posted that thread to the archive instead of the active forum,  maybe the Mod's can move it moved, thanks.. also seem to have a problem geting the photos to show up..still working on that photos moved here and are working, there's a link to the online album with all the pics in a post after the photos for now, including the cover photos a few posts up in this thread]
« Last Edit: August 14, 2006, 07:20:42 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Zaphod

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #205 on: August 14, 2006, 04:46:16 PM »
Reporting success with the Transcend 4GB card. I recorded the Drive-By Truckers on 8/11 and they played for 2 hours 58 minutes.

I recorded @ 24/48 (continuous recording) with the file being 2.88 GB. While the file would not play on the R-09 it transferred to my mac via USB and opened up in Spark XL just fine.
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Offline superpup

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #206 on: August 14, 2006, 06:29:06 PM »
I just tried out my new R-09 for the first time yesterday, and found it worked great!  I actually formatted (or at least it appears that I did) a 4GB Transcend card in the R-09.  It just kept saying it was processing, so after a while I assumed that I had messed it up, but after stopping it, taking the card out, trying to format it on my computer (with no success), I put it back in, hit record, and it worked fine.  I am still not entirely sure what I did, but everything seems to be fine...

The show recorded great, and transferred over to my computer with no problem at all.  Go figure.

I will have another go with it at a show tonight and see what happens!

Offline guysonic

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #207 on: August 14, 2006, 06:49:52 PM »
Now just kick it up a notch and add a wind screen!  Nice work on the handy custom "mod".... and nice battery info up there too!

The windscreen mod for the internal mics would be a piece of cake. The chrome metal grills that cover each of the mics are removable from the inside. You simply slide them out and put micro windscreens in their place. FYI - the internal capsules are mounted internally at a ninety-degree angle from each other and are actually pointing to the top of the recorder and not the sides as one may assume by looking at the unit.
dB-

Indeed...but it's 120 degrees.



While I am talking about the internal mics (and after reading both the R-09 mega-threads  :) ) I can only assume that 99% of the people here either

1. Record amplified music.

AND

2. Record with external microphones

OR

3. Record an external pre-amp + External Mics.

I say this because if you are trying to use an R-09 to record ambient sounds using the internal mics, you will need to have the switch to high-gain and the recording level between 15-20 in order to get a decent level. Under these circumstances the preamp-noise in the R-09 internal mic preamp is very noticeable, I am surprised to see so few people mention it. I say this so that anyone thinking to use the internal mics on birds/nature etc is not surprised and disappointed.

High gain mode is only really OK if you can get close enough to the source to achieve -6 dB with level settings of 10 or less (not common). If you have a source sound that is loud enough to let you switch to low gain then the internal mic + internal mic preamp noise is not an issue.

If (as I suspect most people here are doing) you can preamp an external mic and feed the R-09 a line-level signal, then I agree, that is the unit is more than good enough to make use of the 24 bit recording mode and recordings are 'quiet'.

Regards Scott.
www.digifishmusic.com

Actually the internal mic preamplifier is adequately quiet enough, but the internal mics themselves are NOT. The noise you hear are from the mics and maybe their power source, NOT the deck's preamplifier as far as I can tell.

See updated review for external input spectal graphs for this deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #208 on: August 14, 2006, 07:03:38 PM »
Scott, thanks for the internal mic info.  I think you're correct about people mostly using external mics here, and preamps for quieter ambient stuff.  My experience is similar.  Once I plugged in some quality mics I didn't use the internals much.

I think the internal mics are particularly suited for journalism / posdcasting etc, use the unit as a hand-held mic and to grab sound-bites / effects for similar.

That said I have uploaded a range of sounds made with the internal mics (all high-gain setting) at the Freesound project

http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/usersViewSingle.php?id=29541

I assume everyone here contributes to that? It's a great idea :)

Regards Scott
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #209 on: August 15, 2006, 06:03:53 AM »
Actually the internal mic preamplifier is adequately quiet enough, but the internal mics themselves are NOT. The noise you hear are from the mics and maybe their power source, NOT the deck's preamplifier as far as I can tell.

See updated review for external input spectal graphs for this deck at: www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm


Interesting....which ones should I be comparing I'm confused :)

Regards Scott
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