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Author Topic: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII  (Read 65776 times)

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Offline udovdh

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #255 on: August 24, 2006, 06:39:19 AM »
Hmm. The listing with the values is not very readable. How can I improve this?

Offline kuuan

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #256 on: August 24, 2006, 09:17:07 AM »
Hmm. The listing with the values is not very readable. How can I improve this?

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« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 03:31:01 AM by kuuan »
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Offline sleepypedro

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #257 on: August 24, 2006, 09:35:32 AM »
post a screencap from a spreadsheet, or text editor with fixed font width.

Offline twoheadedboy

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #258 on: August 24, 2006, 10:31:02 AM »
Quote

you need to be at level 8

1->7 = attenuation
8->30 = gain

Relative to what?  0 is no level.  30 is max.  Everything in between is gain.....

Paul

Paul

Not according to what others have found...8 ~neutral, 1-7 is attenuation, 9-30 is gain.

Offline pgoelz

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #259 on: August 24, 2006, 11:46:57 AM »
"Unity" gain relative to what?  Are you looking at the signal after the "fader"?  Or are you referencing it against some sort of "standard level"? 
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Offline udovdh

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #260 on: August 24, 2006, 12:20:49 PM »
post a screencap from a spreadsheet, or text editor with fixed font width.



Offline gmm6797

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #261 on: August 24, 2006, 12:25:40 PM »
I have read every post in this thread, but I am also not an engineer.

By the chart (not experience and performance), why are the numbers the best at the recording level of 8?  Not questioning, just trying to learn.

Thanks!

Offline tapeworm48

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #262 on: August 24, 2006, 01:17:40 PM »
i'd like to understand this better as well.  why is it best to run the R09 at a gain of 8?  i would think that whatever setting gets me the desired levels would be optimal.  is running above or below 8 going to negatively impact the dynamics of my recording?



I have read every post in this thread, but I am also not an engineer.

By the chart (not experience and performance), why are the numbers the best at the recording level of 8?  Not questioning, just trying to learn.

Thanks!
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Offline Rick

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #263 on: August 24, 2006, 01:25:09 PM »
i'd like to understand this better as well.  why is it best to run the R09 at a gain of 8?  i would think that whatever setting gets me the desired levels would be optimal.  is running above or below 8 going to negatively impact the dynamics of my recording?



I have read every post in this thread, but I am also not an engineer.

By the chart (not experience and performance), why are the numbers the best at the recording level of 8?  Not questioning, just trying to learn.

Thanks!

Well it depends on whether you like your pre-amp or in this case the R09's pre-amp. Most people like their own pre-amp better then the internal R09 one. So assuming 8 is unity, you set the R09 at 8 so your not using (or using very little) of the R09 pre-amp. I have my R09 set at 8 and then control the levels using my Sax. 
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Offline SunWizard

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #264 on: August 24, 2006, 02:13:08 PM »
i'd like to understand this better as well.  why is it best to run the R09 at a gain of 8?  i would think that whatever setting gets me the desired levels would be optimal.  is running above or below 8 going to negatively impact the dynamics of my recording?

To understand this better, you are going through 2 gain stages, your pre has gain, and then the gain of the R-09.  If you are using an external pre with cleaner gain than the R-09, setting the R-09 fairly low would be the best, even a little below 8 if the pre remains clean even with the gain cranked up.  But many pre's self noise get much more noisy when cranked up, thats why you don't want to attenuate much on the R-09. 

Each pre is different, So the best measure would be to record sample files of the self noise of your pre+R-09 at different settings with equal level and compare.  The trick to setting equal level is to record a reference signal like a tone at 1khz and then set the combined gain so meter on the R-09 is -6db.  For example, pre=high, R-09=4.  Then do pre= medium, R-09=8, and pre=low, R-09=20, etc. That is what I did in this thread http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=69131.0 and then guysonic did it with the pre he sells.  You might be surprised to find that using only the pre in the R-09 by itself is as good or better (self noise wise) as compared to your external pre noise added to the R-09 line in noise.  That is if your mics output a high enough level like my AT-853 to be used with the mic-in low gain switch setting which is just as clean as the line-in.  The mic-high gain setting gets noisy quickly.

As discussed early in this thread, unity gain is a relative thing since 0 db is a different voltage level on different devices, different op-amps, impedances, etc.  Mainly what you want is a low setting on the R-09 where you have some headroom to adjust your gain comfortably with the controls on your pre (if it has a gain knob).  Each change of the R-09 setting when between 4-15 makes little difference in the self noise. 
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Offline aberg

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #265 on: August 24, 2006, 03:04:17 PM »
Can somebody post a picture of the OLED r09 level meters in action?

Offline guysonic

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #266 on: August 24, 2006, 03:11:01 PM »
Ok... hopefully this is not a dumb question.  With past recorders I've used my DSM6SMs into a PA-3SX preamp into the recorder.  Then I always use the pre to control the gain and just use the recorder to record without upping the gain.  However, with the R9 if I set gain at 0 it acts like the signal is muted.  I'm guessing I just need to set the R9 at 1 and all will be OK.  Anyone know the DB added for each step on the gain control?  I could be wrong but it does not seem to be 1:1.

The only 2 complaints so far are the battery door and the bright red recording light around the record button.  I may need to take a sharpie to it before I have to stealth for the first time.  Other than that this seems like a great unit.

Suggest best tact with PA-3SX is set preamplifier gain switch at highest not showing overload with R-09 LINE input REC level initially set at numbers #15-to#18 (about mid range).

Then make REC level adjustments (up-or-down) for best VU signal with headroom.

This is the method I found most correct with R-09 LINE input with external preamp capable of ~+0to +4 dBv maximum output.

If recording at 24bit depth, then VU peak levels can be lower than normal for 16 bit recording (more conservative for increased headroom) and have good resolution after post edit 'normalizing.'
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #267 on: August 24, 2006, 05:02:19 PM »
To understand this better, you are going through 2 gain stages, your pre has gain, and then the gain of the R-09.  If you are using an external pre with cleaner gain than the R-09, setting the R-09 fairly low would be the best, even a little below 8 if the pre remains clean even with the gain cranked up.  But many pre's self noise get much more noisy when cranked up, thats why you don't want to attenuate much on the R-09. 

Each pre is different, So the best measure would be to record sample files of the self noise of your pre+R-09 at different settings with equal level and compare.  The trick to setting equal level is to record a reference signal like a tone at 1khz and then set the combined gain so meter on the R-09 is -6db.  For example, pre=high, R-09=4.  Then do pre= medium, R-09=8, and pre=low, R-09=20, etc. That is what I did in this thread http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=69131.0 and then guysonic did it with the pre he sells.  You might be surprised to find that using only the pre in the R-09 by itself is as good or better (self noise wise) as compared to your external pre noise added to the R-09 line in noise.  That is if your mics output a high enough level like my AT-853 to be used with the mic-in low gain switch setting which is just as clean as the line-in.  The mic-high gain setting gets noisy quickly.

As discussed early in this thread, unity gain is a relative thing since 0 db is a different voltage level on different devices, different op-amps, impedances, etc.  Mainly what you want is a low setting on the R-09 where you have some headroom to adjust your gain comfortably with the controls on your pre (if it has a gain knob).  Each change of the R-09 setting when between 4-15 makes little difference in the self noise. 

Excellent explanation SW (+T).  I'll only add that it's probably best to avoid setting the input too low if the external preamp doesn't have a clipping indicator.  In that case the preamp could be driven into clipping trying to make up enough gain to counter the attenuation of a low setting on the R-09.  That was suspected as the problem someone was having earlier in the thread.  Also, if you're making gain adjustments on the R-09 while recording using a setting too close to '0' and you need to turn it down, you risk muting the input if you inadvertantly go from '1' to '0'.
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Offline tapeworm48

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #268 on: August 24, 2006, 07:30:08 PM »
Well it depends on whether you like your pre-amp or in this case the R09's pre-amp. Most people like their own pre-amp better then the internal R09 one. So assuming 8 is unity, you set the R09 at 8 so your not using (or using very little) of the R09 pre-amp. I have my R09 set at 8 and then control the levels using my Sax. 

now that makes sense. thanks rick.  in my case, i am using a fixed gain pre (Nbox) so i have to rely on the R09 to set levels, whether it be around 8 or not.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn... We F**ked Up."

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Offline gmm6797

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Re: Edirol R-09 Release Information -ptII
« Reply #269 on: August 24, 2006, 10:22:00 PM »
Well it depends on whether you like your pre-amp or in this case the R09's pre-amp. Most people like their own pre-amp better then the internal R09 one. So assuming 8 is unity, you set the R09 at 8 so your not using (or using very little) of the R09 pre-amp. I have my R09 set at 8 and then control the levels using my Sax. 
now that makes sense. thanks rick.  in my case, i am using a fixed gain pre (Nbox) so i have to rely on the R09 to set levels, whether it be around 8 or not.

Using the Schoeps VMS02ib, looks like I am in the same boat.... I may run a couple of shows splitting the signal out of the VMS (one to an R1 and one to the R09) and see if there is any differences.

 

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